Posted February 5, 201510 yr As topic states, my fuel keeps gelling when temps dip below zero and I am already using super-tech two stroke @ 1oz/gal. What do I need to be checking???
February 10, 201510 yr All the additives I mentioned above improved the HFRR score better than 2 stroke oil. Were talking about comparing formulas that have been designed and tested for a specific use compared to using an oil for something other than what it was designed for. There have never been any studies other than for lubricity to determine any long term effects good or bad of 2 stroke oil. While I concede there are likely no negatives, it hard for me to understand how people have no issue taking something that was never designed or tested for diesel fuel and dumping it in their tank and yet have misconceptions about using something that has been extensively tested and approved by OEMs.
February 10, 201510 yr Quite simply price. Even though it may cost less to put 1oz per 3 gallons of diesel of one of the additives you mentioned, the bottle price can be intimidating for some. I agree I'm not sure why some question using the additives you mentioned before but they don't question 2 stroke because it's 2 stroke. It's an oil that isn't going to hurt anything.
February 10, 201510 yr Schaeffers 2000 costs almost the exact same to treat a gallons of diesel as 2 stroke oil.
February 10, 201510 yr And to the comment of 2 stroke doesn't hurt anything, it is designed to be mixed into gasoline and ran through carburated engines at very low to no fuel pressure. Quite a different scenario than being mixed into diesel fuel and pushed through injector nozzles at thousands of psi, so while it SEEMS likely it doesn't hurt anything, I've yet to see any long term studies that support that statement.
February 10, 201510 yr Schaeffers 2000 costs almost the exact same to treat a gallons of diesel as 2 stroke oil. Yes I understand this. Read what I wrote again and you will see that I completely agree. And to the comment of 2 stroke doesn't hurt anything, it is designed to be mixed into gasoline and ran through carburated engines at very low to no fuel pressure. Quite a different scenario than being mixed into diesel fuel and pushed through injector nozzles at thousands of psi, so while it SEEMS likely it doesn't hurt anything, I've yet to see any long term studies that support that statement. Mike's at nearly 200,000 miles on 2 stroke. I think if it was going to hurt something it would have by now. I do understand what your saying.... but come on tons of people run it. Heck people even run it in CR trucks at 25k+ psi and haven't seen any ill effects.
February 10, 201510 yr the bottle price can be intimidating for some. I understand what you said, and I was simply relaying to others who may have this misconception that a true additive costs more is not the case. Just because others have ran it doesn't validate one way or the other the benefits or draw backs. Mikes on what, his third set of injectors? Again, not a good baseline to go by. There really aren't that many people that run 2 stroke oil other than the members on this site. Ask any John Doe diesel owner you meet on the street about using 2 cycle oil in diesel fuel and be ready for a "wtf" look.
February 10, 201510 yr We are arguing something that neither of us is going to win. I know a ton of people who do run 2 stroke in their CR, vp and 7.3 trucks. No one has had any problems and neither have I. If my injection pump blows up in 10,000 miles and Industrial Injection says it's gummed up with 2 stroke (What do ya think Ed ) then I might switch. Until then each to their own
February 10, 201510 yr Mike's at nearly 200,000 miles on 2 stroke. I think if it was going to hurt something it would have by now. I do understand what your saying.... but come on tons of people run it. Heck people even run it in CR trucks at 25k+ psi and haven't seen any ill effects. So am I!!
February 11, 201510 yr The whole focus of this topic has gone way off course. I don't believe there are any long term negatives to running the stuff, I was simply offering a better and cheaper solution to adding 2 cycle oil and anti gel together when you countered with the misconception that no antigels are capable of providing acceptable lubrication and that's where things got sidetracked. Personally, Im more than comfortable running something that's been tested extensively by Bosch and Cummins standards, and like to keep things simple (and cheap when possible). So for me the logical choice is to use something that's capable of providing both.
February 11, 201510 yr You would probably be better off using one of the products diesel4life suggested. It would also be cheaper!
February 11, 201510 yr I grew up as a kid riding two stroke dirt bikes, as well as working as a mechanic at a local bike shop. Two cycle oils were designed to operate under extreme conditions. I use it year around in my 3rd Gen... The reason being I am concerned with the entire engine,, upper cylinders, valve guides, injectors, CP3, etc, I have an unused 6oz bottle of FPPF sitting on the shelf in my garage that claims to treat 280 gallons??? I just have a hard time getting my mine convinced that a 3000/1 mix ratio will provide any benifit. Maybe I`m wrong? but I know two stroke works. BTW, I know this does nothing to answer the OPs gelling issue.. My advice would be to look for a better fuel supplier.
February 11, 201510 yr Owner Yes I understand this. Read what I wrote again and you will see that I completely agree. Mike's at nearly 200,000 miles on 2 stroke. I think if it was going to hurt something it would have by now. I do understand what your saying.... but come on tons of people run it. Heck people even run it in CR trucks at 25k+ psi and haven't seen any ill effects. So am I!! Dorkweed is the one that started the whole 2 cycle oil concept back in the day. I'm the one that ran with it... OE VP44 died at 50k miles (P0216) and was replaced. I'm at 240k miles now. OE injectors are still very function and just stored away. My RV275 Injectors where used about 400k miles and managed to get another year from them. But then replaced them with +50 HP injectors and here I am today...
February 11, 201510 yr diesel4life; I'm gonna throw this at you here for you to ponder.....................I know folks personally that use their 2 stroke snowmobiles in temperatures down to -50*F. That's actual air temperature. I've run my 50HP Evinrude outboard that's on my boat down the river in temps as low as -10*F. In case you don't know, most all modern snowmobiles and outboards are "oil injected" 2 strokes. No mixing of oil and gas in these. That oil had better stay flowing when it's that cold, or there's major problems. Diesel fuel is "oil".................as is 2 stroke. Plus 2 stroke is made/designed/formulated to burn, and burn cleanly. In order to flow at those really cold temps, the 2 stroke has to have some "anti-gel" properties to it. I'm not saying it's being sold or marketed as anti-gel; because it's not, it just has to have those properties to be used at those extremely cold temps. Mikes research years ago showed that most all 2 stroke oils have a lower "pour point" than does straight diesel fuel. Don't recall if it was winterized diesel or not. By my way of thinking, by mixing 2 stroke oil and diesel together at the low ratios/concentrations that we do, it has to improve the "pour point" of the diesel somewhat. The stories and reports we read here about fuel gelling; I'd be willing to bet that more often not, it's water in the fuel that's freezing and not the fuel itself gelling. I've no way of proving that, but that's my gut feeling. I live in northern Illinois........about as far North in Illinois without being in Wisconsin......................There's a lot of guys here that live in areas of the USA and in Canada that are much further North than I am that've never put a dedicated "anti-gel" product into their diesel in the Winter. In addition to that; I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of folks that drive diesel vehicles don't put an anti-gel product in the fuel they get......................And you don't hear of mass stories of fuel gelling around the country. Someone above mentioned "Gummed up from 2 stroke" above..........................In a properly running 2 stroke engine, the 2 stroke oil is not causing the gummed up. It's from the engine not being properly tuned and/or the gasoline in it that's evaporated and gummed the fuel lines and the carburetor up IMHO. I don't remember if it was Mike or someone else here.......................but they mixed diesel and 2 stroke and let it set to see if it would separate.................it didn't. Like I said above, 2 stroke is made to burn, and the ratios we are running it at is way less than what most folks use in their 2 stoke power equipment and toys. I run 1/2oz. per 1 gallon of diesel............that works out to about a 256:1 ratio in my truck. Mike and the VP crowd often run double what I do, or about 128:1. Still pretty thin when compared to 40:1 used in most 2 stroke engines.
February 11, 201510 yr I think ive mentioned it here before, I spent a good part of my life in Wyoming and spent much of the winters snowmobiling so I'm quite familiar with 2 cycle engines and their "hardiness" in cold weather. My parents have had a cabin in the Snowies as long as I can remember, where they are are over 9500 feet in elevation and where we would ride would be well over 10k feet bjt we could end up as low as 7k feet. Learned lots about tuning carbs at various altitudes and proper mixing, if you didn't and got it wrong you were in big trouble! Like I mentioned above, I don't believe there are long term effects of running 2 cycle oil in diesel fuel. The point I was trying to make was there is an EXTREME phobia on this site of running an antigel treatment, and its based off of some big misconceptions. There are some good quality additives on the market that do as good a job or better at increasing the lubricity of fuel as 2 cycle oil AND will drastically lower the pour point of diesel fuel. It is a strong belief here that any antigel needs a dose of 2 cycle oil dumped to add lubricity, and that is simply not the case. This was my whole point when things got "blown off course", why waste your money double dosing when you can simply use a good additive that does both? I don't understand the logic being used by so many here.... 2 cycle oil will not lower the pour point of diesel, no way no how. For that to happen you would have to mix such a strong ratio it would be detrimental to the engines fuel system not to mention probably smoke like a freight train. I agree with your statement that most people that are plugging up are getting bad fuel. This is another advantage of running a quality additive over 2 cycle oil. They have additives that disperse any water that may be present in diesel fuel in order to prevent fuel icing and other problems associated with water. Last year we saw many days and nights -15 to -20 below zero and our equipment started every morning without any treatment at all. We get our fuel from a reliable supplier with a good reputation with the local farmers. I use Schaeffers 2000 year around which is their "summer blend" and never have issues either, but if its forecasted to get as cold as I mentioned I have a bottle of winter blend I will use as a precaution. Edited February 11, 201510 yr by diesel4life
February 11, 201510 yr My CR did not like 2-stroke at all. It made my exhaust brake stickey, so I cannot imagine what other places it left a coating on.
February 11, 201510 yr My CR did not like 2-stroke at all. It made my exhaust brake stickey, so I cannot imagine what other places it left a coating on. Have you tried it since you've done all your "mods"?...................... and especially since you've had to essentially "re-build" your Cummins??!!! Just asking.................not arguing!! Edited February 11, 201510 yr by dorkweed
February 11, 201510 yr My CR did not like 2-stroke at all. It made my exhaust brake stickey, so I cannot imagine what other places it left a coating on. Get the exhaust hotter and burn it off Just kidding!
February 12, 201510 yr Look, The vp44 was a total embarrassment to the Robert Bosch corp. They didn't have nearly enough time to get a prototype put together, let alone do any longevity studies. They were putting all research into the new CR development. They are supplying a LOT of engine manufacturers with this system. The only reason for the '44's existence was to fill the gap in the tier system, and buy the automotive use diesels some time. There was never an off road cummins that used the '44, they went from the p7100's straight to the Cp3 CR system. Why? Off road use didn't need to pass heavy emissions until '06. Before then, most materials used in the pumps and injectors were quite adept at handling the fuel of that day.. then came along the weaning of the sulphur It wasn't a one time stab.. .it was gone in about 3 waves. Every day, there are less and less '44's out there to worry about. We'll never see a 'fix' other than what WE can come up with by trial and error. Cummins had no problem with pulling oil straight from the pan for re-use as a fuel. They had a really slick setup for this purpose. They did it for ease of maintenance, Not so much for lubing up the fuel.. You youngsters have no idea what kind of bear-grease diesel fuel was, back in the 70's! Along came the 90's, we all heard of guys dumping in everything from used engine oil, trans fluid.. Howes was a hoot; It's namesake is LUBRICATOR. shoot, It did VERY LITTLE for helping the HRFF. It's OK as a 'winterizer'.. but don't let the namesake fool ya. One of the pump shops near me is a Stanadyne authorized shop. They sell their products too, and even THEY say it's not enough. 5 years ago, I asked them "well, what are we supposed to do??" They said, 'get ready to bring your pumps in more often'. I use 2 stroke in my pickups for these reasons. 1. I carry it along with me for refilling.. If I spill a little, no big deal, it smells like normal oil. Spill a stanadyne type product, and your eyes are blistered over... (yeah, I know, don't spill it in the first place) 2. It's ashless. and it's blue green dye matches the color of ON ROAD fuel. 2b. It doesn't cause a problem when I get fuel checked by the DOT. (I have been chewed out when I used to run WEO, 'black diesel' I still run all my waste oil through the tractors however. 3. It's everywhere you look.. wally world, tractor supply houses, I've even see it in a larger grocery store in the oil dept. Is there better products out there? probably. I CAN'T speak for the whole community, but I can claim 2 stroke has not caused me any grief as in fuel gelling. Or a waste gate growing shut. in fact, all the trouble I have had in my posts about gelled fuel is when I have been lax at keeping it in the tank. (not because of the lack of 2 stroke, but because I got caught with my pants down!) I was a member for about a week here when I gave it whirl. I quit using my waste engine oil, and keep jugs of 2 stroke on hand. Mighty handy compared to juggling nasty dirty oil, filtering it, and getting it into the tanks.. Mike is just one guy with real world results on this 'experiment'.. Now if there was a way to put a couple thousand guys in the same room with 2 stroke'd 44's, with a combined miles of say, half a billion... then we could rack up some statistics! All I'm saying here is, with the diminished number of these trucks everyday, we can expect zero help from industry. Can we expect to find a miracle cure that Bosch overlooked? nope. Geez, there isn't a definitive answer to WHY the solder in the pump's board suddenly 'lets go', or what temperature the pump itself becomes 'too hot'. and eats itself up.. how can we expect to come up with a 'perfect lube' ??? We should be able to extend the service life of the '44 with better lubed fuel, but don't expect any product that can keep the pump running as long as the engine itself. Normally, I used to expect a diesel engine to have a service life of 12-15k hours, and the pump would be tired too.. but certainly not rebuilt 3-4 times a 44 would need to be for the same hours. with that said, Mikes 44 shouldn't be a 'miracle' pump just because it has 200+K miles! It shouldn't even be a blip on the radar! But he seems to be an exception to the norm... and we learn from others' good luck!
February 12, 201510 yr Here in the US, yes, the VP44 was a stopgap. But, it was used much earlier in europe (Along with the VP37). Over there, it is considered a very dependable pump.So dependable that Dieselmechen (Sweedish pump master) got rid of his test bench for them, as it just sat there. It's also MUCH cheaper than Cps & CR injectors.... Ed
As topic states, my fuel keeps gelling when temps dip below zero and I am already using super-tech two stroke @ 1oz/gal. What do I need to be checking???