Lift Pump/ Fuel Supply Question

[whodat88]

Hi guys, I looked through the topics on this forum and didn't find anything specific about this. I have determined that my Raptor pump functions only for the first 15 to 30 seconds after startup, then quits. I hotwired it to the battery and it works fine, so it seems to be a power interuption to the pump causing this. If this is true it doesn't seem that a relay would solve the problem, as the same power interruption would interfere with power to the relay. Could this be some sort of ECM issue, or maybe just a ground, or reflash needed? Any suggestions would be appreciated!

[Me78569]

So if you just start the truck, so its running, the pump runs for 30 seconds then shuts off? 

 

but if you hot wire the pump it runs for as long as you supply power?  

 

VERY VERY strange.  The ecm supplies the 12v for the pump, or relay.  Does your raptor have a relay to draw power from the battery vs the ecm?

[JAG1]

You need fuel pressure gauge and two cycle oil in the tank before you start cruising anywhere. Does the wait to start light work?

If you just bump the starter it's designed to run the pump for about 25 seconds but if fully running the engine it should go 100% of the time.

[eddielee]

The lift pump is powered by the ECM only.

The IP is powered off the relay in the PDC. I would double check that you somehow do not have a short.

If this was the only problem presenting, I personally would supply power via a relay or a fuse that has power during cranking and running. Just have to remember to put it back if you put in a new ECM.

And I recommend creating a signature with the year model and other specs of the truck so you don't get asked those things whenever you make a post.

[whodat88]

Thanks for the responses. To answer comments and suggestions:

Yes, when I start the truck, the Raptor gets power for about 25 seconds, the same as if I just bumped the starter to check it's operation. That's it.

I have a FP gauge and after this initial startup I see pressure up till this 25 or so second mark, then it falls to 0 and the truck slowly dies of fuel starvation.

It's like the pump is only getting power at the start-up "key bump" phase, then nothing.

Yes, as it seems to be the only problem presenting, I do intend to install a relay as it seems a good idea anyway to avoid spiking the ECM, which may be the cause of this in the first place. Where do I run the power for the relay from? If the ECM is not supplying voltage to run the pump after a short time, then the ECM connection won't work. I guess just from a key on connection.

[Buzzinhalfdozen]

If it was mine I would get power from one of the accessories, key on power. Run that to a switch in the cab, then run it to the relay trigger. That way the pump will shut off when the key is off but you can still control it if you have the key on. 

Only downside is if you crash and the engine dies the pump will continue to run. 

[eddielee]

10 hours ago, Buzzinhalfdozen said:

Only downside is if you crash and the engine dies the pump will continue to run. 

At least it will run through the return line unless a fuel line breaks...

[Mopar1973Man]

10 hours ago, Buzzinhalfdozen said:

Only downside is if you crash and the engine dies the pump will continue to run. 

This is why the ECM controls the lift pump so when tach signal drops to zero the lift pump is shut down. This will prevent a lift pump feeding a fire that might of occurred from a vehicle accident. 

 

[dieseled]

Ive been dealing with a similar issue on my 99

delayed 12 volt to IP relay from ecm , that would cause long cranking , at the same time ,  lift pump ,fass ddrp on frame rail  would some times work key on for 2 seconds as it should , but mostly no 12 volt to pump . And when starter bumped would in -frequenty work for 25 sec , but usally only come on as less than 12 volt for 5 seconds , there is a time when lower voltage is set but I think its only supposed to be during cranking  to produce 7 lbs instead of 15 lb pressure

Right away I rewired lift pump to the power window fuse , and put a test light at the dash on the ecm to lift pump wires to moniter it  ,also put a test light on the ecm to IP relay wire

Truck wa long crank  but when I see test light on ,showing ecm to relay bat volt  on it, fires every time , ran fine , lift pump is fine on power window circuit

 

Cummins said try crank pos sens , and cam pos sens , checked grounds....delay caused by ecm waiting for a signal back from ?

Decided on ecm , replaced with a 2001 ecm because of known issues with 98 .5 and 99 ecms  ,ecm from cummins , installed 99  file with Smarty , thanks to Dyan  at smarty, that cured the long crank , but still throwing a po230 code voltage to lift pump , its wire back to ecm , and have a relay on the way to get the higher voltage pump off the ecm , incase that's what started the whole issue , just did all this today , lift pump is working key on  2 sec and bump 25 sec but if repeated right away no 2 sec , and bump for only five at lower volt , like theres a time out to do the full 2 sec and 25 sec bump ,? never noticed that before . After about one min it works as it should , I`ll see if it throws a code , I`m driving it 8 hours tomorrow

Anyway that's my problem , I saw this thread as I was on this site looking at the po230 code trouble shoot in the articles here , from  what I have found out by looking at the wiring in my service man there are two pins on the ecm plug that go to the lift pump # 15 and #35  both YL/WT wires that somewere before the plug at the lift pump combine to one YL/WT wire , my thinking is one pincontrols the start , 2 sec , 25 sec bump , and the  other the run

My problem seems to be with one, the start pin , yours is the run pin, I`ll be checking wiring from the new ecm  to the pump if that code shows again , You should check the article out and rule out the ecm ,wiring and pump as the writeup says but I think you have to check both pins at the harness  since I cant find out which is which ,both say " sleeve position sensor +" , the wiring diagram shows both going to the lift pump splice connector  "S160"  at the stock lift pump , only about one and a half feet of wiring harness away

 

 

[JAG1]

 Dieseled.........Welcome to the forum. . Very interesting write up on how you are working this out. I hope you get it.

[Mopar1973Man]

Wait to start light coming on instantly with the key?

If its delayed at all the engine will not start or do much of anything till the WTS light comes on.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[catnhat]

 

My raptor did the same thing not to long ago I tried running it with a relay nothing and it would bliw the fuse nothing i did would keep it running past 30 seconds. When I had a volt metter on the plug I would watch it lose power. Mine was fine when it was hot wired. I ended up buying a fass 150 which plugs right into the factor plug and haven't had any problems with it . I think it is a sign of a dead pump you could look at my thread it's called lift pump help 

I would start with getting it on a relay off the battery with a fuse and if it pops the fuse then then pump is bad my rapor lasted about 30k 

Edited January 27, 2016 by catnhat

[JAG1]

 Interesting the bad pump would cause the ECM to lose power. Something with excessive power draw or grounding inside the pump?

[catnhat]

My thoughts where the ecm had to much of a draw on it and killed the power to the pump almost like a safe mode, thats just a idea.as soon as I got mine on relay with a fuse and it would pop a 20 amp fuse then I new the raptor was gone

[JAG1]

20 amp is good. Think I heard problems having a 30 amp fuse.

[whodat88]

Thanks for all the input, much appreciated. I guess first I'll wire direct to the battery with a 20A fuse and see if the current draw is high. If not, wire the pump via relay which at the least would give non ECM power to the pump which seems like a no brainer. Back last summer when I changed the VP44 and my third raptor (ugh!) I had the ECM flashed at the dealer. I wonder if the reflash had anything to do with this. I keep thinking "no, it can't be the raptor pump, they have to have gotten their s**t together by now".

[Mopar1973Man]

Raptors are known for this problem.

I've got a dead Raptor on my bench that the seal ate the shaft of the pump. Rubber seal capable of eating a steel shaft... What's wrong with that picture?

Edited January 28, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[Cowboy]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Rubber seal capable of eating a steel shaft... What's wrong with that picture?

[dieseled]

15 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Wait to start light coming on instantly with the key?

If its delayed at all the engine will not start or do much of anything till the WTS light comes on.

No it wasent  , but fuse 9 in cab- output to ecm controlled by ign switch was coming on instantly  , had hoped for a ign switch to fix it ,but not ,so I figured it was probably ecm , but that's a costly fix , and since I couldent find a used wrecking yard one and I didn't feel comfortable with those internet -mail you a  already flashed ecm companys so I  looked at everything else

So I did the crank and cam sensors as the cummins tech support guy said and every other thing I could find , then did the ecm   , like I said that cured the IP power delay.    Its funny after changing the ecm ,but with the lift pump still on the power window circuit , nothing on the ecm lift pump wires, it through a  PO230 lift pump out of range , but with it back on ecm and I drove it 8 hours today no code . It still dosent work the way I expect it to , if I key on once it does the 2 sec deal but if I repeat right away nothing , wait 30 sec or so its on for 2 sec again , about the same for the starter bump  and 25 sec on deal, I was at cummins today and asked , but no one had heard that one ,will call cummins tech tomorrow ,

 I hope its something in the newer flash that I put on the ecm that Smarty e-mailed me .My truck never had been reflashed since 01 . Just for drill I bought the rest of the ecm input sensors , IAT , MAP , Oil press, Coolant temp , since the truck has 230k on it I figure it wont hurt to change them , I read a bunch of forum threads and read some funny solutions to similar issues , changing sensors . Also I have a spare Fass DDRP I might put on , relay and plug harness came in the mail today , pump amp load is getting off the ecm

I had a conversation with the guys at Fass a few weeks ago about the line voltage drop problem of a pump 7-8 feet away with I would think a higher that stock carter amp draw , looks like 14ga wire on the harness to the factory plug that has 18 ga wire going to the ecm , they said no prob , but the way I see it its going to cause a heat issue at the ecm ,

3 hours ago, whodat88 said:

 

 

3 hours ago, whodat88 said:

Thanks for all the input, much appreciated. I guess first I'll wire direct to the battery with a 20A fuse and see if the current draw is high. If not, wire the pump via relay which at the least would give non ECM power to the pump which seems like a no brainer. Back last summer when I changed the VP44 and my third raptor (ugh!) I had the ECM flashed at the dealer. I wonder if the reflash had anything to do with this. I keep thinking "no, it can't be the raptor pump, they have to have gotten their s**t together by now".

If you run  the wires into the cab thru the grommet under the brake master , and into the fuse panel on the door side of the dash. You can use a fuse spade type tap on the power window fuse , it is powered when ign is on but is defeated when the starter is cranking 

[catnhat]

I ran the relay like this picture 

The red fuel pump  power wire I taped the power wire on the factor plug