What's it like to have a waste gate?

[Me78569]

You need a hx40 style downpipe

some what to connect the turbo outlet elbow to the intercooler ( cpp sells a pipe for $80 I think)

 

I would call DAP and see what they say about turbos to fit your needs.  I think he has a couple.

[TFaoro]

I did the swap a year or two ago and it isn't hard, it's just a pain making sure you have every little part to make it bolt up. 

I'd say the biggest thing you should do is determine your budget. The he351 is a good turbo... not knocking it, but technology has come a long ways since it was designed. IF you can afford something better that's the route I would go. An s300g (57/65/12), 60/65/12, 60/68/12, etc. The FMW turbos are pretty sweet as well. They've also got the EFR and SXE series out now.

[Me78569]

Yep if the budget is more open then there are other turbos that will work better.

[dodgedieselnewbie]

The budget is... the best perfomance for my application/needs without going twins. I'd rather have the cruising power up grade/hill.. than get up and go.

Edited February 26, 2016 by dodgedieselnewbie

[CSM]

22 minutes ago, dodgedieselnewbie said:

The budget is... the best perfomance for my application/needs without going twins. I'd rather have the cruising power up grade/hill.. than get up and go.

Those aren't mutually exclusive, even more so with an automatic.  You are fortunate to live at a lower elevation, which will help.  

If you tow heavy, you don't need or want a big single.  It just won't work.  You can't sustain the power levels that a big single will live in very long and you won't get spool to get off the line without clouding out traffic with smoke.  Plus, when towing you don't want to be sustained much over 20psi or you will wear the engine out far faster than necessary.  Anything bigger than a 62 is absolute overkill and again, you are going to have a very smoky and peaky power curve that will be a pain.  

You have some good options presented above.  I would go the adrunio controlled vgt route if it were me.  With work, it will be smooth and give good enough power.  I really like my II 62 and setup for what I do, but it sucks at altitude and needs more accurate fueling.  However, a comp, an HX and 50 hp injectors will give you plenty of power to get up hills.  A s300 and 90s-100s will make more power, but you can do the price comparisons on your time and see if it makes sense to your budget.  

[dodgedieselnewbie]

26 minutes ago, CSM said:

Those aren't mutually exclusive, even more so with an automatic.  You are fortunate to live at a lower elevation, which will help.  

If you tow heavy, you don't need or want a big single.  It just won't work.  You can't sustain the power levels that a big single will live in very long and you won't get spool to get off the line without clouding out traffic with smoke.  Plus, when towing you don't want to be sustained much over 20psi or you will wear the engine out far faster than necessary.  Anything bigger than a 62 is absolute overkill and again, you are going to have a very smoky and peaky power curve that will be a pain.  

You have some good options presented above.  I would go the adrunio controlled vgt route if it were me.  With work, it will be smooth and give good enough power.  I really like my II 62 and setup for what I do, but it sucks at altitude and needs more accurate fueling.  However, a comp, an HX and 50 hp injectors will give you plenty of power to get up hills.  A s300 and 90s-100s will make more power, but you can do the price comparisons on your time and see if it makes sense to your budget.  

Makes sense.. Thanks for the info! I like the idea of the VGT because it has the exhaust brake incorporated. I'll look over ME78569 write up about it and probably come back with questions. I think OFF ROAD had one for sale on cf and I took a hard look at it... but was scared off because I think he modified his shock tower?? Another thing is I'm not really familiar with using lock up switch.. when to turn it on and off... Would something like a BD Autoloc switch work in conjunction with the exhaust brake component of the VGT? Would my S&B CAI work with it? I'll be back :-)

Edited February 26, 2016 by dodgedieselnewbie

[Me78569]

Keep in mind to really be able to control a vgt well you need to watch turbo shaft speed.  Most 3rd party controllers only work off of boost.

 

Yes it will work, but not as good as it should.  If you want a more off the shelf controller look at lilbb.com.  

 

If you somewhat electrical say you can follow my writeup

[dodgedieselnewbie]

Eh... I read it twice.. not comfortable with it. :-(

[Me78569]

Go look at lilbb.Com stuff then if you want to got he vgt route.

 

Don't go with the banshee controller or fleece.

[Mopar1973Man]

Just of point of reference. I'm still stock HX35W turbo, Edge Comp 5x3, and +50HP injectors. No real EGT issues. Pulling up hill 3rd or 4th gears can be rather well... Loose. Even pulling my 31 foot RV I've had times climbing grades where the rear tires will break loose. Power is there in the 25 to about 65 MPH bracket works really good even towing in elevation all the way to 9,000 feet which in the high local point. Even towing on steep road with 16% grades and steep. No isses. 

[dodgedieselnewbie]

While a VGT may be ideal.. I think I'd rather go with something I won't have to retrofit too much. I don't have the kind of time it would require to install and program... Thanks for the info.

[Mopar1973Man]

Just remember RV275 (+40) injectors are considered stock for a RV/motorhome Cummins ISB chassis. So now +50 HP is only +10 HP over the stock RV ISB engine... Even those engines used HX35W turbos. The only thing that really has changed is the Edge Comp that now give that extra boost of power. This why I really can't see a huge need for a turbo upgrade. 

Edited February 27, 2016 by Mopar1973Man

[dodgedieselnewbie]

On 2/26/2016 at 0:06 PM, Me78569 said:

You need a hx40 style downpipe

some what to connect the turbo outlet elbow to the intercooler ( cpp sells a pipe for $80 I think)

 

I would call DAP and see what they say about turbos to fit your needs.  I think he has a couple.

I did contact Jacob with DAP and he said "a killer b would be hard to beat for my power level but"... "if I wanted to step up to 125 injectors a 60/68/12 would be a better choice"

For some reason.. I am really having a hard time wrapping my head around the diesel world... understanding how everything correlates. Mostly because of how a box/chip/programmer such as the edge, smarty or a quadzilla interacts or effects things.

Hopefully I can explain my ignorance properly... 

For example.. I understand that adding injectors and a larger turbo can increase your power.. right? But if you have a box and you add injectors and a turbo... you would need to turn the box down (especially while towing).. so what's the point the point of the box? I hope you understand what I'm saying...

I'm trying to understand why the larger injectors and turbo would produce better results than the smaller injectors and smaller turbo? 

Is a box really necessary? Can you achieve the same results without it by going larger turbo and injectors... without a box?

I have spent countless hours reading and watching videos but am just not getting it for some reason... I don't know why...

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by dodgedieselnewbie

[Me78569]

A box is a computer method to increase the fueling of the truck without needing larger injectors. 

 

You don't need a box, but they do provide benefits, timing, different mapping over the ecm that is more efficient / better to dd, boost fooling, etc etc.

 

While towing you are putting your truck unload large load, so having a box turned up can cause issues.  the more load you put on a diesel the more power it will make generally.    Now you don't need 500 hp to tow so turning the box down gives you more of a buffer zone to prevent damage.

 

As for injectors + box + turbo being better than large injectors + turbo.   6 in one hand half dozen in another, but having a box gives you the ability to have 500 hp when you want to put the pedal down and 350 hp when towing and you put the pedal down.  Everything will be stressed less.  

 

Having all 3 gives you the best of both worlds.  you can have a fun 500 hp dd truck and a good reliable, not to powerful, towing truck.,

[dodgedieselnewbie]

5 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

A box is a computer method to increase the fueling of the truck without needing larger injectors. 

You don't need a box, but they do provide benefits, timing, different mapping over the ecm that is more efficient / better to dd, boost fooling, etc etc.

While towing you are putting your truck unload large load, so having a box turned up can cause issues.  the more load you put on a diesel the more power it will make generally.    Now you don't need 500 hp to tow so turning the box down gives you more of a buffer zone to prevent damage.

As for injectors + box + turbo being better than large injectors + turbo.   6 in one hand half dozen in another, but having a box gives you the ability to have 500 hp when you want to put the pedal down and 350 hp when towing and you put the pedal down.  Everything will be stressed less.  

Having all 3 gives you the best of both worlds.  you can have a fun 500 hp dd truck and a good reliable, not to powerful, towing truck.,

I understand most of what you said... still trying understand boost and fooling. What I gathered is I don't really need a lot HP for towing. Torque is what you're after for towing.. correct? Doesn't torque come with HP? 

Okay... you have a stock turbo.. you add a box and wire tap that can produce 120hp. Will 125hp injectors coupled with a stock turbo produce similar results? 

[Me78569]

HP is nothing more than a calculation of torque over time.   

 

HP = (T*N)/5252

 

T = Torque (lbft)
N = Speed (rpm)

 

Our ECM'S are set to defuel at ~20 psi of boost so, injectors, say 125 hp, will not put the same power down as a box that does 120hp just because the box will boost fool and keep the ecm from defueling.  

 

 

Boost fooling means that The box will sit between the map sensor and the ECM, as boost rises beyond  20psi the box will only output a max of 20psi to keep the ecm from defueling.  

 

Basis Boost fooling explained

map output | Tuner | ECM input

    5psi -->   5psi -->5psi

    15 psi -->15psi-->15psi

    25psi  -->25psi--->20psi

 

Without a box you will not see over 25psi ever because the ecm does a great job at pulling fuel when it see's overboost condition.

[dripley]

My waste gate opens at 33psi; When my tuner went out the engine defueled at about 20 psi. It was a pain to pass anyone.  Had to roll into the throttle and keep the boost at or below 20 to pass any one. A real PITA.

[dodgedieselnewbie]

Ahh.. okay.. so when I'm hitting 30-42psi... the edge is telling it there's only 20.. so it'll keep giving.. correct? 

Back to turbo and injectors... why would the 125s and 60/68/12 be better for towing? I would have to turn the box down even lower to accommodate the larger injectors than I have now... or not so because of the larger turbo?

Edited March 9, 2016 by dodgedieselnewbie

[Me78569]

You have it right.

 

 

With an auto you will likely have to turn the box down, I know with my setup I have to turn the box down, but I am also at 7000' altitude which makes a HUGE difference.   The turbo sizing and injectors will give you a better towing setup.  Turbo ssizing is typically a balancing act, IE: Do you want a quick spooling setup or a higher HP setup?  

[dodgedieselnewbie]

I have read a lot about "lag" and not really sure what it's like. I don't think I have much lag with I have now and not sure what I would encounter with a change. I'm not looking to be quick off the line... as fun as that is or might be. I would rather not have lag (if there's going to be any) when I'm already cruising down the road.