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bms231

Front Crank Seal Help .... and show and tell of what the dealer did

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dang. my tool doesn't fit from the front. I will dork around tonight. I got two seals just in case. 

 

it's amazing... 50% of people demand front. 50% demand back. Cummins b manual says back actually. I read it on a thread somewhere. #heregoesnothing

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I always install from front, never seen a seal install tool like that, never used anything but a small hammer to finesse it in flush with the front of the housing.

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emm billet cover. or so it looks. Sadly the tool won't go in the front of mine. going to **** around with it in a few. 

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Well I just destroyed the first seal.

 

Can't go in from the front.  The front of the new timing cover is too narrow.  You wind up gouging out the sides of the seal.

 

Can't go in from the back.  Install tool from cummins isnt worth a dang.  Won't stay level.  Messed up the seal in every way possible. 

 

I am now officially stuck. 

 

 

Hell, I even tried putting the little turd in my vice grip to squeeze it in......... no go.  Oblonged the seal.

 

 

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I destroyed my first seal going in from the back and bent my second seal from the front and it now it leaks.

 

Use light force tapping the seal and make sure it goes in perfect/y level/flat. Did you install the cover on the engine yet or doing this on the ground? If installed on the engine/timing case, there is wiggle room with the bolts and cover. Meaning if the bolts are loose, you can move the cover up down left right about a 1/16th and it can be off center from the crank, making a seal install impossible.  

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I see that I'm not the only one that destroyed first seal. I got a few thousand miles out of my first install before it started leaking, and I think it was due to not being seated square. I put another one in and now over100k with no leak.

 

I know I posted in earlier comment and it's been posted in others is that you need to lay that cover flat on a bench and secure it. And put some blocking on the underside of the cover so it does not flex when you drive the seal in. 

 

 

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Once I tried doing a seal on a 12 valve and took cover off to do KDP which was sticking out about an 1/8. anyway got the seal in from the front because I couldn't get it to go from the rear and when installing it back on to crank it took so much force to get it stretched over the crank with that plastic guide it pushed the seal out of the cover, and I used some red thick loctite. Then I reinstalled the seal and tried without the plastic guide and it still poped out of the cover, after a while i got pissed and put the old seal in as it wasn't leaking before just figured i'd change it cause i have cover off. Long story short these front seals are a bit... and I'm starting to wonder if there are different sizes available. I know that the one I got was for that engine from cummins dealer according to engine number and it didn't have a sleeve. 

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Has anyone tried with the cover off installing the seal with a press or even a C clamp?  Using a piece of wood to support the housing and spread the load and a large socket to fit the circumference of the seal place it in the press or C-clamp and tighten till flush.  By doing this you're not beating on the seal with uneven pressure which could cause it to deform and it should go in straight. 

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Ii it were mine  I would check that cover real good for warpage or any deform and check the OD of the seal compared to the OD of a factory cummins seal with a caliper gauge and also the seal housing in cover. If all within specs it should fit.

 

the press would be a great idea. Even a shop with a hydraulic press could install it  with ease , sure would be cheaper than ruining a seal

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read all the above... update and response to a few of ur comments...

 

new timing cover.  dealer destroyed last.

 

install is happening off  the truck.

 

 

Here is what I did.  I went to harbor freight.  Got a 1 TON arbor press I saw someone use on another thread.  I overnighted a seal install kit from amazon for 40 bux.  There is NO WAY in hell this was going to go in from the front square.  I tried w/ my original destroyed seal and the seal actually bent.  I played around and this is what I did......

 

went from the front (kinda).  I put the thing in crooked on purpose.  I then used the arbor press to press the one side down w/ the seal die set.  I then came in from the back and found one of the seal kit dies fit perfectly inside the cummins installer tool.  I then pressed put the die in the tool and pressed in from the back seating the seal to the correct depth.  I had to use nearly 1ton of force to get this little bugger in.  it must have something to do w/ a new cover.  i found it would be SOOO much easier if i took the paint off the inside of the timing cover and the red paint/crap off the outside of the seal... but i did neither b/c I assume it's there for a reason.  this thing was a PITA to get in.  it is nearly perfectly level.  as close as I will ever get it IMO.  not 100% sure i didn't bend the timing cover in the process even though I had it on a block of wood flat on the press.

 

Items Used:

LocTite 620:

http://www.amazon.com/Loctite-234772-Temperature-Retaining-Compound/dp/B003T7UXUI?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

 

Astro Bearing Race and Seal Driver ($40):

http://www.amazon.com/Astro-7824-Bearing-Driver-Master/dp/B00061SGFO?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

 

1 Ton Press (59.99 - 20% coupon)

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-arbor-press-3552.html

 

Just realized phone update makes these photos come sideways...

 

2016-04-10%2015.35.37_zpsusr0bmkg.jpg2016-04-10%2015.35.47_zpstkahv3fb.jpg

 

2016-04-10%2015.35.23_zpssa5pmkse.jpg

 

2016-04-10%2015.35.11_zpsvwpsu6ng.jpg

 

2016-04-10%2015.56.59_zpsmvg26kar.jpg

 

2016-04-10%2015.40.10_zpsgwjknhpv.jpg

 

2016-04-10%2015.40.14_zpssdz8nrny.jpg

 

 

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check this out write up out, notice that i reinstalled the timing cover " bolts only HAND TIGHT" and then install the seal

http-::s1209.photobucket.com:albums:cc389:rburks1:Crank%20seal%20install:.webloc

9 minutes ago, rburks said:

check this out write up out, notice that i reinstalled the timing cover " bolts only HAND TIGHT" and then install the seal

http-::s1209.photobucket.com:albums:cc389:rburks1:Crank%20seal%20install:.webloc

 

YOU can find the complete article over in TRUCK ARTICLES ON THE FORUM

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The finished product.  I am leaving that loctite 620 in there.  hardens in 24 hours.  ZERO of it is touching any seal material or yellow sleeve. 

 

i won't know until tomorrow if depth is right... but... i used the cummins tool so hopefully when I do the install, all goes well.

 

2016-04-10%2018.29.05_zpstn1ntrhe.jpg

 

2016-04-10%2018.29.16_zps2kck31er.jpg

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i installed mine by hand on original oem cover on a workbench. started it with fingers and tapping with deadblow to get it in, then with a 2x4 i whacked it till it was flush with lip, then used the install tool which set it into the housing about 1/4" (from front) and it has worked fine. strange you have so many issues with yours :(

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just found my baring location has no rubber gromet in it.  dunno if the dealer left that out or one wasnt in there.  he just did a valve service.  likely forgot to put it back in.

Got er in.  don't mind the locktite 620.  thought it would have hardened by now, but still goopy.  oh well.

 

seal is a hair cocked, but square in the cover.  really weird.  i tightened the right side of the case down a bit harder to compensate.

 

waiting for ultraback to hardened for an hour per instructions, then torquing to spec

 

2016-04-11%2010.52.13_zpslfwwyhtg.jpg

you might like this redneck engineering.  i went to lowes and got 3 M8x1.25 120mm long bolts.  threaded them through the cover and used that to perfectly align the cover before pressing on the cover w/ ultrablack.

 

2016-04-11%2009.47.52_zpsyad9rkuc.jpg

 

 

2016-04-11%2010.31.41_zpsgzu3chze.jpg

 

 

my seal work.  i found i had to scuff the back of hte cover to get the ultrablack to stick.  first attempt it literally slid right off. 

 

2016-04-11%2010.29.17_zpsrjygu2qm.jpg

Edited by bms231
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got her buttoned back up..... tired

 

 

i wound up not starting her.  rotated the crank by hand twice.  book says let her sit four hours dry.  i am going to let it sit 24 hours b/c ultra black says wait 24 hours before putting vehicle back into operation. 

 

fingers crossed.

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started her up with Mike on the phone. she didn't explode. rain tomorrow. will take her out Wednesday and check for leaks. still have to get air out of cooling system. 

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Very, very impressed with the idea of the bolts.

 

2016-04-11%2010.31.41_zpsgzu3chze.jpg

 

Like I told @bms231 I'm going to purchase a set of bolts for this reason and keep them in my toolbox for future jobs. I'm sure soon I'll be doing more gear case resealing. Then his idea of pressing the speedy sleeve on with the damper. Again another very smart idea.

 

So I got to give Brian a big High Five for great ideas neat tricks and idea!

 

 

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Started her up tonight to bleed the coolant system.  Let her bubble for ~30 minutes.  So far 45 minutes run time on the truck.  Fingers crossed... no oil as of yet.  Don't want to jinx it.

 

Waiting on a part from dodge.  Stupid dealer never put the plug back in my bell housing where the barring tool goes.

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                                           animated-smileys-speech-balloons-021[1].gif     A very nice write-up!

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On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 10:02 AM, bms231 said:

just found my baring location has no rubber gromet in it.  dunno if the dealer left that out or one wasnt in there.  he just did a valve service.  likely forgot to put it back in.

Got er in.  don't mind the locktite 620.  thought it would have hardened by now, but still goopy.  oh well.

 

seal is a hair cocked, but square in the cover.  really weird.  i tightened the right side of the case down a bit harder to compensate.

 

waiting for ultraback to hardened for an hour per instructions, then torquing to spec

 

 

you might like this redneck engineering.  i went to lowes and got 3 M8x1.25 120mm long bolts.  threaded them through the cover and used that to perfectly align the cover before pressing on the cover w/ ultrablack.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's because most Loctite products are "Anaerobic" which means they will only cure in the absence of air, which is why the exposed product will never harden. One needs to use Loctite primer for an almost instant cure of most of their anaerobic products. The bottles are actually designed to allow air to flow through them, if not it would be solid in the bottle much like the product usually is under the cap.:wink:

 

One needs to research the products and how to properly use them before just assuming how they are to work.

 

You did however choose the retaining compound with the largest "Gap fill" spec of .015". to help with the nicks and gouges on the crank.

Not to be a buzz kill and hopefully as many issues as you had that the seal lasts for a while but from my experience if the seal is not straight and plus the fact you installed a seal that is made to spec for the crank dimension alone and not with a sleeve under it rather than a matched seal sleeve kit it will not last as long and will wear into the sleeve fairly fast and start to leak.

Edited by Wild and Free

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11 hours ago, Wild and Free said:

 

That's because most Loctite products are "Anaerobic" which means they will only cure in the absence of air, which is why the exposed product will never harden. One needs to use Loctite primer for an almost instant cure of most of their anaerobic products. The bottles are actually designed to allow air to flow through them, if not it would be solid in the bottle much like the product usually is under the cap.:wink:

 

One needs to research the products and how to properly use them before just assuming how they are to work.

 

You did however choose the retaining compound with the largest "Gap fill" spec of .015". to help with the nicks and gouges on the crank.

Not to be a buzz kill and hopefully as many issues as you had that the seal lasts for a while but from my experience if the seal is not straight and plus the fact you installed a seal that is made to spec for the crank dimension alone and not with a sleeve under it rather than a matched seal sleeve kit it will not last as long and will wear into the sleeve fairly fast and start to leak.

 

?? 

 

1. used the Cummins seal kit per the thread. so it is a match set of sleeve and seal. oem cummins. even called them with my engine code to confirm. 

 

2. researched the 620.  said it above which is why I selected it for the gap coverage. originally had the stick, but saw the gap coverage wasn't as great as the liquid for. 

 

3. read the instructions on the bottle, their site, and technical spec doc. mentioned primer, but never exactly said why. most spray paints say use primer but 99% of the time it's not needed. figured it was just another add on and acetone cleans just as well. 

 

so.....I waited 4 days. on the bottle it says cure time of 24 hours. the way they word the primer leads me to believe nothing about required use.   designed to promote the curing speed of LOCTITE anaerobic adhesives and sealants without any significant loss of joint strength

 

 

 

Edited by bms231

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bms,

 

The stuff where no oxygen is will cure.  The goo hanging out on the outside where it is surrounded by oxygen will not. It will stay gooey.  This is why the 620 doesn't harden in the bottle....  In fact if you try to pressurize the bottle, it will leak, its made so that our ambient oxygen will migrate through the bottle and keep it from hardening. 

 

The primers work pretty good and help clean the area, but they don't do anything to cure the the goo that is exposed to oxygen.  If you want to cure the stuff on the outside you will need to make an oxygen free atmosphere for it.  It appears that acetone or iso-alch will act as a solvent and remove the un-polymerized portion  

 

HTH

 

Hag

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