Quadzilla Adrenaline V2 Testing

[Mopar1973Man]

2 hours ago, AH64ID said:

 

Yep, and I pull my pilot at higher rpms which means I need a little more timing for the main. 

 

 

 

 

Can you explain why? I'm curious why you would drop the pilot injection go only with single injection event.

[AH64ID]

On 9/9/2017 at 11:33 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

Can you explain why? I'm curious why you would drop the pilot injection go only with single injection event.

 

The pilot's main benefit is to decrease noise and improve initial combustion, especially when the main event is at a very low timing advance (such as ATDC for OEM tunes, or certain profiles). This all has a play into emissions. 

 

At higher rpm's and loads there is enough timing, with modified tunes, that there isn't much of a benefit to a pilot. There isn't an audible difference and the pilot timing gets to be pretty far advanced when the main is advanced 15°-25° or more. I personally don't run much more than 18° of timing, but that's also becuase I get to run a failry short injection duration based on the size of my injectors and desired horsepower. 

 

When I dropped the pilot at upper loads I noticed a small decrease in EGT's for the same load and that I lost a little bit of power, but not enough that I even bothered to correct it.  

[Mopar1973Man]

2 hours ago, AH64ID said:

At higher rpm's and loads there is enough timing, with modified tunes, that there isn't much of a benefit to a pilot. There isn't an audible difference and the pilot timing gets to be pretty far advanced when the main is advanced 15°-25° or more. I personally don't run much more than 18° of timing, but that's also becuase I get to run a failry short injection duration based on the size of my injectors and desired horsepower. 

 

Trying to wrap my head around what you are saying. According to your sig info your running BBI Stage 1 injectors. I understand you are flowing more fuel for your duration time. Here is someone with CR experience and difference of the fuel system and performance module makes it tough...

 

 

 Arrgh... I wish there was a better way to explaining the whole tuning process. More to level of Common Joe without Dyno use. I'm still trying to figure out how to spot optimal tuning using live data from the OBDII port. 

 

I even considered jump on the UDC just to try it but after firing up the software and looking at the level of confusion I returned the Smarty and gave up on that idea till I can get the tuning figured out on something simple like Quadzilla.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[AH64ID]

Dyno's aren't really needed unless someone is trying to get 100% out of a setup. 

 

Many of the tables that appear overwhelming have minimal impact and/or are just for drive ability and emissions. You can make UDC Pro as simple as Quadzilla by leaving many of the tables stock, just like Quadzilla likely does or you can modify them to meet your needs/mods. 

 

I'd jump into the VP tuning but the lack of the "base" table has me wondering. Thou maybe with a custom tune the base table is zeroed and only the one table is needed. 

 

I've been doing custom tuning for 5.5 years and still learning stuff, so it's not a quick process. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Timing is a completely custom table.  2D vs 3D as Smarty handles. So the base table would be the performance timing and the cruise timing is stacked on top. There are other variables that give the 2D of Quadzilla a bit more 3D like the Fuel Load timing. 

 

Now fuel wise its using the ECM as a base table. So basically multiply percentage to the fuel number then the result is fed to the VP44. 

 

Fueling wise I've got that figured out rather well and can produce tunes that are nearly smoke free. Its the timing values and knowing how far to advance the timing. I've been wanting to see what other tuners have for timing maps to have at least a base line value of normal can tunes are like. Right now I did find the Quadzilla Default values and trying them out with a slight tweak. 

 

Now this all being said... I'm not in this for racing. But MPG and economy. A lot of time spent with cruise set at 65 MPH and letting the truck roll. So now that being said how much timing is required for cruise optimally?

[Me78569]

opitimal timing is related to rpms and fueling.

 

I know the smarty s03 puts timing at ~20* at 65 on my truck

I know the edge puts timing at 21*-22* at 65 on my truck

[Mopar1973Man]

Just now, Me78569 said:

opitimal timing is related to rpms and fueling.

 

I know the smarty s03 puts timing at ~20* at 65 on my truck

I know the edge puts timing at 21*-22* at 65 on my truck

 

Now provide the whole map for both... Aways get just one number... 

 

1,500 - 2,000 - 2,500 - 3,000 - Max 

[Me78569]

you asked at 65 mph. 

 

 

Those numbera sre impossible to put out because of varing load.  Consider the maps in place and you see that I could give you 4,000 different answers.  

 

What load are you looking for for each of those? Have you looked through my data log repository for the Smarty numbers?  

[Mopar1973Man]

Really easy to provide the numbers. Set your cruise for 1,500 RPM take note of the timing on flat ground. Then increase RPM's for each number on flat ground. This should be done a low engine load measurement. More or less as a cruise state. Then you can build backwards from a cruise state to performance state by subtracting 2 or 3 degrees from those values. The problem is automatics have to be locked up to get these number where a manual I can do it easily. 

 

So did you mail that CANBus splitter cable? I'll be glad to measure out the Edge Comp and get some solid numbers. 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

I will need a load % measure measurment for those situtations.  My trucks fueling at those numbers will be a good bit different from yours. 

 

The smarty logs should have what you need in all situtations.  Keep in mind I couldn't find ANY example in the smarty logs that timing wasn't %100 related to rpm.  IE smarty timing doesnt appear to look at anything other than rpm for a value.  I don't understand it but that's what hte data shows.  

 

The splitter is on my desk still.  I have to put the female plug back on for you.

 

 

@Mopar1973Man

 

Alright heres are some numbers for cruise state on the edge

 

1200: 17.75* seems about average for cruise

 

1500: 19*-19.5* seems about average for cruise

 

Above that I am unable to keep load low enough to keep the ECM from pulling timing, so 

 

1700: 20*

2k: 17-18* unless I pull off the throttle then timing spikes to ~22*

 

 

This matches your MPG number from way back when dropping off after 55 mph

 

These numbers are with Boost up, so I am assuming the edge uses Boost as an axis for the timing.

 

2500: 24*

 

3000: 28*

 

Max: 29*

 

 

this is pretty hard to make a make off of since the ecm is pulling so much timing after 55 mph.  

[Me78569]

@Mopar1973Man

 

Here's that timing drop I am talking about in the OEM timing. 

 

 

You top that 1600 mark and %20 - %25 load and timing drops of the face of the earth.  ( the scale of this map is about %40 of MM3 if you look at other maps) 

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

What is the X axis in the table above? I can see the RPM on the Y axis...

[Me78569]

MM3 injected.  Think of it as canbus fueling.   104 is about %40 of the total possible.  So you can see where timing dumps off is roughly %20 - %25 load

[Mopar1973Man]

Still in all... I understand the stock hole in timing... No one has shown how to tell what is enough timing. Too much timing? Too little timing? How does a person find out what is the right amount? Like @AH64ID mention that since his larger injectors he doesn't need as much timing. Then dropping pilot injection.  I know CR is a different system... 

 

Fueling wise we all can see in the mirror if we have the right amount of fuel to boost. Simply look in the mirror if there is black smoke you need to roll back the fuel in your fuel table. 

 

Timing wise there has to be a way to see what is too retarded or too advanced. 

 

Then you add all these variables into the mix. Which affect timing in all different ways. Fuel load timing, Low PSI reduct, Timing Reduct Scaling, Light Throttle Advancement and load limit. One person tune might not fit another because of injector differences, altitude, turbo differences, even engine differences.

 

The BIG Question....

So how do we detect proper timing?

[kzimmer]

18 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

The BIG Question....

So how do we detect proper timing?

 

From a strictly efficiency standpoint, the best way I could imagine is to get on a steady state dyno, pick a load similar to real life, set the cruise at various RPM's and monitor canbus fuel level while adjusting timing. Repeat with every scenario you can think of and record. Lowest canbus at any given RPM and °BTDC wins the prize. I would say monitor EGT as well but lowest EGT isn't necessary 100% the best efficiency... 

 

Now that's obviously not feasible for most of us. Dynos are expensive. Need a steady source of load though...

[Me78569]

Define proper timing?  lol

 

White smoke and popping = too little timing

popping along = too much timing. 

I get what you are asking, but there is a pretty large region of "ok" timing.

 

 

Think of it as a P7100 truck.   they running daily timing of anywhere from 15* to 21* on a stock truck.  There is ~6* of "good enough timing"  

 

Now dialing in timing to be "perfect" we have to trail and error within the "good enough" timing.  That's kind why I have been adding to that R & D thread. 

 

I make a single change to the tune then go out and figure out if it helped or hurt in a given situtation.  

 

Keep in mind that @TFaoro got some of his best MPG number with a smarty s03.  
 The s03 timing is , as far as I can tell, %100 related to rpm only.   So your tune doesn't really "need" to use the timing variables you can leave them at .5 * or something and use the rpm timing settings to define your curve.  




So for what you are looking for @mopar1973man I would create 3 tunes all exactly the same EXCEPT light throttle load.  Do one with 1* one with 2* one with 3* and so forth.  then do a run down to @moparmom 's doctors.  Rinse and repeat.  After you make a trip on each tune in the same manner look at fuel useage.    It is too hard to spot a change driving down the road. You need longer term data on 1 tune at a time to compare.  The longer the run the less stable conditions matter, the shorted the run the more stable conditions you need. 

Keep in mind that Light throttle timing is not calculated at the same time as fuel load or tps reduction.  Think of light throttle as one map and TPS reduct and fuel load as another map.  if fueling is below light throttle load limit then the map for light throttle is used, other wise the map for tps reduct and fuel load is used.  In theory changing TPS reduction and Fuel load should have 0 effect on MPG while at cruise.

You could also data log the same stretch of road over and over at the same speed / load / wind yadda yadda.  Make a couple tunes then drive the same stretch of road over and over watching EGT's between tunes.  in theory the tune with the lowest EGT's should get best mpg.

This is where my 19* - 20* timing for mpg came from.  running back and forth to Fort Collins with a given tune.  I found MPG kept climbing as timing came up, until I reached 21* at 65 and then mpg didn't change.
 

[kzimmer]

6 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

in theory the tune with the lowest EGT's should get best mpg.

 

This is what I held as gospel for a while. But I started thinking, over advancing might show even lower EGT, but at the point where peak combustion is happening BTDC, putting more power against the rising piston than necessary.

 

Less EGT, more heat soak in the piston that's not easily spotted, especially if the cooling system is up for the challenge. Now obviously if this is exaggerated enough it would likely sound like several dwarves are under your hood hammering on the side of your block.

[Me78569]

True, load should spike though.

 

So lowest egt at the lowest canbus fuel? Lol

 

Tuning isn't hard, fine tuning is.

[kzimmer]

1 minute ago, Me78569 said:

True, load should spike though.

 

So lowest egt at the lowest canbus fuel? Lol

 

Tuning isn't hard, fine tuning is.

 

Lowest egt at the lowest canbus fuel at the lowest load %. Graph them and find the point where they all intersect.

 

Just kidding... Kinda.

[AH64ID]

15 hours ago, Me78569 said:

You top that 1600 mark and %20 - %25 load and timing drops of the face of the earth.  ( the scale of this map is about %40 of MM3 if you look at other maps) 

 

10 hours ago, Me78569 said:

MM3 injected.  Think of it as canbus fueling.   104 is about %40 of the total possible.  So you can see where timing dumps off is roughly %20 - %25 load

 

I have seen the higher MM3 reference in the some maps, but that's not going to correlate to 100% load. IIRC I have mm3 references in my tune over 200, but OEM limits fueling to 132mm3. Most of the CR tables run up to 145 mm3, which is why a stock CR will only peak at 91-92% load. There is more fuel available but the ECM is hitting a limiter. 

 

I don't have my tuning computer with me today, but I'll try to remember to bring it tomorrow and let you know what I find for load to mm3 correlation. 

 

I know we did a thread a while ago about valve cover mm3 value but I cannot find it. It may not mean that value is 100% load, but it's going to be close. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Still in all... I understand the stock hole in timing... No one has shown how to tell what is enough timing. Too much timing? Too little timing? How does a person find out what is the right amount? Like @AH64ID mention that since his larger injectors he doesn't need as much timing. Then dropping pilot injection.  I know CR is a different system... 

 

Then you add all these variables into the mix. Which affect timing in all different ways. Fuel load timing, Low PSI reduct, Timing Reduct Scaling, Light Throttle Advancement and load limit. One person tune might not fit another because of injector differences, altitude, turbo differences, even engine differences.

 

The BIG Question....

So how do we detect proper timing?

 

Proper timing is like fuzzy math. There are different proper timing values for many things, it's why custom tuning is so popular. Box tunes use a couple (with things like Smarty Revo) timing tables and we find what works best. Custom tuning lets us tune for specific mods and use. 

 

Proper timing on a street tune will be different than proper timing on a tow tune on the same truck without any hardware changes. 

 

When I work on a timing map I look at things like the ratio of fuel BTDC:ATDC and when the injector closes ATDC. But I also have to look at rpms, load, mods, and use. This is why I can drop timing with larger injectors, but it's the secondary effect. The primary effect is that I was able to shorten duration for the same amount of fuel. With a shorter duration I don't need as much timing to have my injector close at my ATDC goal. Less timing and a shorter faster injection event are good! With modern tuning I now recommend slightly larger injectors than I would have 5 years ago. 

 

The empty cruise profile is the only place where it's a little different and we use a lot of timing, relative to quantity, to get some efficiency. If we tried that much relative timing with WOT fuel we would have some serious engine issues. 

 

If you're trying to squeeze every hp out of a motor then we dyno tune. By running the truck on the dyno we are able to advance timing until the power production peaks. Once it starts to go back down, too much timing, we back it off to peak and there is the max advance we should run. This will of course vary per rpm and fuel quantity. 

 

Way too much or too little timing should be visible in the exhaust, on the gauges, or audible.