Quadzilla Adrenaline Economy and MPG

[Me78569]

14 minutes ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

i must add I really wish you hadn't taken the wiretap slider table away. It truely was magical in tuning the wire tap side of the fuel rates. Total smoke free. Now it's still clean but there are poofs here and there where it maybe a little quick psi-psi. Maybe you can have a V2 "pro" mode or something for use who understand how it works and know how to utilize it. That would be awesome...

Again unless you were working with me directly in the Quadzilla V3 tuning stuff your Wiretap sliders never worked.  The reason why it was so clean is because everything was set to Min's as none of the tuning variables were being set due to your mismatch with the App profile Vs the base flash you had.  

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

51 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

Again unless you were working with me directly in the Quadzilla V3 tuning stuff your Wiretap sliders never worked.  The reason why it was so clean is because everything was set to Min's as none of the tuning variables were being set due to your mismatch with the App profile Vs the base flash you had.  

Oh that’s right I forgot about that. Still it would be a good feature for those who understand it. I know there was issues with people not understanding the “level” wire tap reduction IE running level 7 of 10 got you 66% or your wire tap map for example (math isn’t right I know). 

 

Like myself personally I run 5 levels total. 3/canbus full stays on all the time and when I want to play I just go to the top level 5 for wire tap. I’ve only used 4 if I’m towing something super heavy and need to like merge or move quickly for a short time and want that 50% wire tap reduction to keep stress down or to stay clean but still have some power to boot.

 

if you have a flash for the quad that can enable the slider function (along with a version for the IOS) id love to run it if possible. The concept I like a lot. I look at wire tap like nitrous, if you spray all the 300hp shot on a stock small block Chevy instantaneously you can damage components but if you put a stage controller with PMW solenoids you can control the ramp rate with multiple variables and smooth the transition. In a way the sliders can allow the same premise, if I want 10psi and up to be where the full wire tap value begins then below that I can put a ramp rate in place so it’s not a 9psi 0% then 10psi 100% as an extreme example. I know boost scaling and such is the smoothing factor for that but to be able to custom ramp and see the ramp on the scales can really help with tuning. I feels it’s just a valuable tool is all.

 

i know my rig is just a tow rig but I do demo the quadzilla capability to customers, the cleaner and more control I have really impresses people

[Quadzilla Power]

53 minutes ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

So is the lasted updates you release primarily geared towards the android operating version? It seems like the apple version is behind as far as updates. Being apple is a pain in the a$$ I wouldn't blame you for it lol

 

No, the update is for both Android and Apple devices. Its really just a vehicle selection thing. The iOS doesn't use the progress bar because it was easier to just add the spinning thing. The vehicle selection is common across platforms. 

 

Regarding the sliders for the pump tap setting:

 

There is a built in ramp rate to the pump tap too. Its not just a flat adder once you get on the levels. Its actually a two dimensional map that the sliders would modify based off the percentage of fueling selected. It turned out it really wasn't that useful and those who did try it out eventually just stuck with the stock tuning. 

 

You can customize the pump tap fueling really well with the variables that are there. 

[Me78569]

42 minutes ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

Oh that’s right I forgot about that. Still it would be a good feature for those who understand it. I know there was issues with people not understanding the “level” wire tap reduction IE running level 7 of 10 got you 66% or your wire tap map for example (math isn’t right I know). 

 

Like myself personally I run 5 levels total. 3/canbus full stays on all the time and when I want to play I just go to the top level 5 for wire tap. I’ve only used 4 if I’m towing something super heavy and need to like merge or move quickly for a short time and want that 50% wire tap reduction to keep stress down or to stay clean but still have some power to boot.

 

if you have a flash for the quad that can enable the slider function (along with a version for the IOS) id love to run it if possible. The concept I like a lot. I look at wire tap like nitrous, if you spray all the 300hp shot on a stock small block Chevy instantaneously you can damage components but if you put a stage controller with PMW solenoids you can control the ramp rate with multiple variables and smooth the transition. In a way the sliders can allow the same premise, if I want 10psi and up to be where the full wire tap value begins then below that I can put a ramp rate in place so it’s not a 9psi 0% then 10psi 100% as an extreme example. I know boost scaling and such is the smoothing factor for that but to be able to custom ramp and see the ramp on the scales can really help with tuning. I feels it’s just a valuable tool is all.

 

i know my rig is just a tow rig but I do demo the quadzilla capability to customers, the cleaner and more control I have really impresses people

sadly that project got put back into the closet and likely wont see the light again.   The functions of the current wiretap tuning are really close and most would never know the difference. 

 

It worked pretty ok, but it was not great because of how fast boost climbs.  The mapped function worked better for most situtaitons.

 

 

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

22 hours ago, Quadzilla Power said:

 

No, the update is for both Android and Apple devices. Its really just a vehicle selection thing. The iOS doesn't use the progress bar because it was easier to just add the spinning thing. The vehicle selection is common across platforms. 

 

Regarding the sliders for the pump tap setting:

 

There is a built in ramp rate to the pump tap too. Its not just a flat adder once you get on the levels. Its actually a two dimensional map that the sliders would modify based off the percentage of fueling selected. It turned out it really wasn't that useful and those who did try it out eventually just stuck with the stock tuning. 

 

You can customize the pump tap fueling really well with the variables that are there. 

I’ve changed some wire tap settings here and there and got it to smooth out a little better but it’s also a stock injector truck so I’ll have to really play with it on a customers truck to further the setting effects and better understand the settings. If that made sense...

 

21 hours ago, Me78569 said:

sadly that project got put back into the closet and likely wont see the light again.   The functions of the current wiretap tuning are really close and most would never know the difference. 

 

It worked pretty ok, but it was not great because of how fast boost climbs.  The mapped function worked better for most situtaitons.

 

 

That makes sense with having a 2D map plus with a map like that you can have more data points technically for multiple situations. 

 

I do still think a IAT map built in would be good though to help any head gasket issues with high temps and further economy by targeting the peak cylinder pressure better. Maybe in the future @Quadzilla Power Will be able to work it in there and see benefits.

 

on CR trucks with efi live I took out the IAT offset before and it didn’t act very well with heat soak or conditional changes. Once I put the map back in and did some small adjustments I got timing and fuel subtraction with heat programmed in which got some small summer time fuel gains and cleaned up the exhaust a little more. Just something y’all should really think on. I know the IAT location sucks on these trucks but an idea could also be to develop a IAT sensor that can go in the intake horn furthest from the cylinder head to get a more correct reading. For example pre-quadzilla on hot days IAT would go over 150* and I was borrowing a superchips for economy. Well once IAT hit 140 or over the timing fell off quickly, I figured economy would fall but it didn’t. Then I noticed it didn’t fuel as hard as 10* before and the exhaust cleaned up a little proving the IAT map that was still active was beneficial. I’m sure those in the desert in 110* heat would appreciate the addition/correction factor. Just a suggestion.

 

 

oh and the cruise timing engine load limitation, can we bring that up to 50%. On stock injector trucks even at 40% it likes to hop in and out of cruise with small .5% inclines which can be annoying. A little more wiggle room would be good for pure economy or highway tunes where we may need a hair more throttle to cruise depending on conditions

Oh and for both @Me78569 and @Quadzilla Power I know your still in development of the in cab screen system but a video on YouTube surfaced from power driven diesel of a GDP android tablet running an app that ran the quadzilla and some camera and other functions. Do you know what the app was called and is it on iOS? Could that app be converted to use of an in cab screen with a OBD2 plug also tied in for diagnostic functions, maybe ABS tire size recalibrations etc etc similar to the edge CTS functions? Maybe it would be possible to take a android tablet and do a flash where it turns on with that control app only so it’s dedicated to the truck if you get my meaning. Maybe a short cut and a little more cost effective to produce then.

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

I know the IAT location sucks on these trucks but an idea could also be to develop a IAT sensor that can go in the intake horn furthest from the cylinder head to get a more correct reading.

 

Don't do this it will create issues with error codes from IAT not sensing grid heater temp change. Yeah, there is a grid heater error code on some years. The other thing is the cooler temp fouls the timing tables for the stock truck when you move the IAT. The IAT can't be moved it does make an effect in timing and degrades performance typically. 

 

 

Remember my MPG fooler fools for 143*F of IAT and some gains are found there for MPG's. Making this cooler or allowing to drop below 80*F will make the ECM kick in nearly +3 to +4 degrees of timing on top. Cooler IAT temps is not a solution... Hence why my produce came into existence... So, moving the sensor is not an option.

 

Just for fun my 1996 Dodge 1500 V8 5.9L has much HIGHER IAT temps than the Cummins. It can range as high as 170*F with heat soak. All cold air intake is in place too. The funny part is the very same sensor is used. I'm even running a 180*F thermostat now from the stock 190*F.

 

 

 

[Me78569]

@Tittle Diesel Performance  if you look at the OEM timing maps the IAT sensor actually doesn't provide adjustments beyond hot or cold timing spike or retard.  the maps are literally a cliff once you hit "hot" or "Cold"

 

we talked a lot about an IAT adjustment and I believe the code is even in the flash, just commented out, because we never could arrive at a total amount of timing to add or pull for a scale of *F change.   Since the OEM maps didn't do it we couldn't really find a good number to use beyond a guess.  Rather than make a guess at it we just left it out.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Me78569

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

2 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Don't do this it will create issues with error codes from IAT not sensing grid heater temp change. Yeah, there is a grid heater error code on some years. The other thing is the cooler temp fouls the timing tables for the stock truck when you move the IAT. The IAT can't be moved it does make an effect in timing and degrades performance typically. 

 

 

Remember my MPG fooler fools for 143*F of IAT and some gains are found there for MPG's. Making this cooler or allowing to drop below 80*F will make the ECM kick in nearly +3 to +4 degrees of timing on top. Cooler IAT temps is not a solution... Hence why my produce came into existence... So, moving the sensor is not an option.

 

Just for fun my 1996 Dodge 1500 V8 5.9L has much HIGHER IAT temps than the Cummins. It can range as high as 170*F with heat soak. All cold air intake is in place too. The funny part is the very same sensor is used. I'm even running a 180*F thermostat now from the stock 190*F.

 

 

 

By the IAT sensor I meant developing a second one far from the cylinder head to get a data point of post-intercooler but not up against the cylinder head where it won’t be heat soaked as much. The air will warm moving into the cylinder head but at least you could get a real idea of what the temp is the engine receives via the cooler rather then radiant heat on the stock IAT. So you’d run both but use the new IAT for a data point to try and dial in the map essentially.

 

i know the stock one they map it for heat soak already but for tuning purposes and control a second IAT would be good. Like the common rails, they run a IAT post air filter and pre turbo then a second in the intake plenum. We would just have it post inter cooler instead to offset for long high pressure pulls and hot days where the intercooler isn’t as efficient. See what I mean?

 

 

1 hour ago, Me78569 said:

@Tittle Diesel Performance  if you look at the OEM timing maps the IAT sensor actually doesn't provide adjustments beyond hot or cold timing spike or retard.  the maps are literally a cliff once you hit "hot" or "Cold"

 

we talked a lot about an IAT adjustment and I believe the code is even in the flash, just commented out, because we never could arrive at a total amount of timing to add or pull for a scale of *F change.   Since the OEM maps didn't do it we couldn't really find a good number to use beyond a guess.  Rather than make a guess at it we just left it out.

 

Well that makes sense why when I hit around 150* IAT and up my timing suddenly fell off. Engine went dead quiet and EGT went up. Must have been that cliff there.

 

i wish I could pull up the stock ecm file on efi live so I could graph it since that’s what I’m used to seeing... I always think back to the common rail files. There was files you posted for me I just don’t have the program yet to open them and see the data so for now there sitting

[Me78569]

Yep it is all mapped in Winols.   

[Mopar1973Man]

 

Take notice to the 1/2" pipe plug. Right between the MAP and IAT sensors. Guess what? That is a coolant passage. This is why I started studying the 180*F thermostat instead of trying to move the sensor. Being moving the sensor isn't going to help. Being the 180*F seems to trim off about -10*F been the coolant temperature is lower. 

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

13 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

Yep it is all mapped in Winols.   

I’ll be buying it at some point just gotta do it. Maybe this weekend, we are supposed to get a sweet hurricane so it’ll give me something to do lol

 

9 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Take notice to the 1/2" pipe plug. Right between the MAP and IAT sensors. Guess what? That is a coolant passage. This is why I started studying the 180*F thermostat instead of trying to move the sensor. Being moving the sensor isn't going to help. Being the 180*F seems to trim off about -10*F been the coolant temperature is lower. 

I put a 180 in my dually, got about 10* drop too naturally.

 

i hate the IAT position, granted running the quad it doesn’t matter anymore now but it’s just not a great spot to base data off of. In general for the 12 and 24v the fact they run coolant threw the intake plenum to begin with isn’t the brightest idea. I see why they did it (emissions) but in the real world it sucks to have that way...

 

the older ford 460’s in the 70’s to meet emissions they put a cross over pipe from manifold to manifold that routed under the intake manifold and carb. Caused fuel boiling like crazy but it sped the burn rate up and allowed lower timing to be used for less NOx emissions. Essentially Cummins did something similar but also a natural air heater for cold climates and low load conditions to create a cleaner burn with more heat. 

I do gotta ask @Mopar1973Man on a stock tune with the IAT fooler what kinda MPG did you manage to sneak out of it? I’m sure it wasn’t great of course but I’m sure some improvement was shown

[Mopar1973Man]

29 minutes ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

I do gotta ask @Mopar1973Man on a stock tune with the IAT fooler what kinda MPG did you manage to sneak out of it? I’m sure it wasn’t great of course but I’m sure some improvement was shown

 

Stock it would float about 18-19 MPG. 

 

Edge Comp is where I started my study of the IAT and that was back when I hit the ball out of the park at 27.2 MPG hand math. 

 

Now on the Quadzilla but new injectors, different turbo, new VP44, etc. Now I'm now starting to rise up to 19-21 MPG. fairly constant.

 

 

Basically in a nutshell. IAT wise the temperature offset is roughly 30-40*F over outside temperature. This value applies to both my trucks 1996 Dodge 1500 5.9L V8 gas engine and the 2002 Dodge 2500 5.9L Cummins. 

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

On 9/12/2018 at 5:31 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Stock it would float about 18-19 MPG. 

 

Edge Comp is where I started my study of the IAT and that was back when I hit the ball out of the park at 27.2 MPG hand math. 

 

Now on the Quadzilla but new injectors, different turbo, new VP44, etc. Now I'm now starting to rise up to 19-21 MPG. fairly constant.

 

 

Basically in a nutshell. IAT wise the temperature offset is roughly 30-40*F over outside temperature. This value applies to both my trucks 1996 Dodge 1500 5.9L V8 gas engine and the 2002 Dodge 2500 5.9L Cummins. 

 

 

When end you had the edge and got the 27mpg what kind of conditions and what fuel station did you use? How long ago was it and was it 40cetane for 45? Back when we had 45cetane here my 12v would get 22-25 area and I didn’t even have over drive. 2300rpm at 60 in 3rd everywhere for a while. It dropped to 17-18 out of no where and I noticed the new tags for 40 cetane. Hasn’t been near that since.... this was back in 2011 btw

 

when you hit that 27mpg was your speedo recalibrated for the tire size too? A lot of people overlook that as the odometer would be off too as you know

[Mopar1973Man]

2 hours ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

When end you had the edge and got the 27mpg what kind of conditions and what fuel station did you use?

 

In a nutshell all local driving still highway but limited to 55 MPH. Chevron Diesel fuel only. 

 

2 hours ago, Tittle Diesel Performance said:

How long ago was it and was it 40cetane for 45? Back when we had 45cetane here my 12v would get 22-25 area and I didn’t even have over drive. 2300rpm at 60 in 3rd everywhere for a while. It dropped to 17-18 out of no where and I noticed the new tags for 40 cetane.

 

Be careful. Cetane is backwards to what you think. 

 

There is no benefit to using a higher cetane number fuel than is specified by the engine's manufacturer. The ASTM Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils (D-975) states, "The cetane number requirements depend on engine design, size, nature of speed and load variations, and on starting and atmospheric conditions. Increase in cetane number over values actually required does not materially improve engine performance. Accordingly, the cetane number specified should be as low as possible to ensure maximum fuel availability."

 

So where the lines cross is the cetane number but notice the BTU number of the higher cetane. This is why winterized fuel of 45 and up tends to produce less power and lower MPG's. Again this is all quoted from the ASTM test labs documents. I actually look for 40 cetane where I can the lower the better. This is why 2 cycle oil was a good part of the high mark too since 2 cycle oil reduced cetane more. 

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

On 9/18/2018 at 9:30 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

 

In a nutshell all local driving still highway but limited to 55 MPH. Chevron Diesel fuel only. 

 

 

Be careful. Cetane is backwards to what you think. 

 

There is no benefit to using a higher cetane number fuel than is specified by the engine's manufacturer. The ASTM Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils (D-975) states, "The cetane number requirements depend on engine design, size, nature of speed and load variations, and on starting and atmospheric conditions. Increase in cetane number over values actually required does not materially improve engine performance. Accordingly, the cetane number specified should be as low as possible to ensure maximum fuel availability."

 

So where the lines cross is the cetane number but notice the BTU number of the higher cetane. This is why winterized fuel of 45 and up tends to produce less power and lower MPG's. Again this is all quoted from the ASTM test labs documents. I actually look for 40 cetane where I can the lower the better. This is why 2 cycle oil was a good part of the high mark too since 2 cycle oil reduced cetane more. 

All we have is 40 now anyways, of course it all depends on conditions and engine tuning etc. just like octane to gas engines, running 93 over 87 has no benefit other then detonation resistance and in some cases of fixed timing engines such as a lawn mower you can loose a touch of power but it’s hardly noticeable

Took mpg on the tow rig last night. City/highway mixed driving on economy with a HX35W. I backed down 1* of cruise timing at the end, the canbus fuel dropped about 75-100 so now I got to find the sweet spot again with the newly found exhaust flow. Boost also came up about 1-2psi VS HY35. During this run I did a few wire tap pulls and some wide open runs. This is hand math, speedo calibrated, same pump etc etc

[Mopar1973Man]

@Quadzilla Power I'm back in action again. 

 

I need to know if there was another update you want me to try. I've got a few minor issues to deal with other than that the Cummins is running and doing quite well.

[Silverdodge]

Hand calculated I'm getting about 20 highway went st Paul MN to Milwaukee last weekend

Edited September 28, 2018 by Silverdodge

[Quadzilla Power]

There have been a few updates that I've done in testing the issue. I just haven't been successful with any of them fixing the issue. I'm really confused about it at this point frankly. I can send it to you to test if you want, but I really need to do something different for the reset of the MPG gauge. The work around (which is terrible) is to delete all your data and then be careful not to set that value to anything. 

However, in the version that you are running (I think you should have 2.8.5) you should have a better corrected Speedo. Can you verify that for me? 

[Tittle Diesel Performance]

22 minutes ago, Quadzilla Power said:

There have been a few updates that I've done in testing the issue. I just haven't been successful with any of them fixing the issue. I'm really confused about it at this point frankly. I can send it to you to test if you want, but I really need to do something different for the reset of the MPG gauge. The work around (which is terrible) is to delete all your data and then be careful not to set that value to anything. 

However, in the version that you are running (I think you should have 2.8.5) you should have a better corrected Speedo. Can you verify that for me? 

Curious if you will ever have a ABS calibration change for the stock speedo. That would help a lot for those running 33+ tires that push your over that 5mph error above 55mph. 

[Dieselfuture]

14 hours ago, Silverdodge said:

Hand calculated I'm getting about 20 highway went st Paul MN to Milwaukee last weekend

Wow, how you doing that on 35s? Still running same tune you posted?