01 24v VP44 to VE Swap (info gathering)

[jlbayes]

The light is very easy to remove. Just sayin lol

[syndicateshop]

Unless you already have the parts sitring in your shop, it's going to get expensive, I have $600 alone into my Delivery valves. Getting the timing set sucks,  nobody wanted to help me figure it out when I did mine. If your current VP44 isn't failing I'd leave it alone. Get a fuel pressure gauge and keep an eye on supply pressure. If you still want to proceede, remember that unless you use custom injection lines, you'll need a non intercooled pump or your DVs will be about 5/8" short of the lines connecting to the DVs

[LegendaryKing]

13 hours ago, Me78569 said:

I never changed power levels, I just left it where I liked it.   

 

The big thing is the cost for the conversion.  Like I said above, for the money you are going to spend to do this, you can just buy a spare vp and leave it in the truck for the day when the one under the hood dies. Betting it will be cheaper to just buy a spare vp honestly.  

 

Time = money. and it doesn't take much time to eat up a lot of money.

 

 

you never really answered if you have to deal with yearly emissions, but here the CEL would be an auto fail.

 

I would like to discuss cost.  From what I understand cost for a VE pump would be less than a VP44 pump over the expected service life of the pump.  Upfront costs of the swap may be more depending on how you install and with what parts you utilize.  EX: Costs dramatically increase with cam removal instead of cam gear removal.  Costs increase with billet timing cases and tuned high performance VE pumps.

 

Either way, this is something I would like to plan out and have all the facts in hand before a decision is made and a project is started.  So please do not hesitate to add more information to this thread with regards to cost.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, dripley said:

There are other things that can do the same to you. Not just the VP. Hard to carry a spare anything.

 

The stock filter is supposed to be very good, but I for one opted for more with the AD as many others have. Kind of a personal preference.

 

You do NOT have fly by wire like my 02. Yours is vacuum controlled.

 

Here in NC we have no emissions on the 2nd gens, but a lit CEL will fail inspections.

 

 

I am at the present working in Bowie MD and will be for the next 2 or 3 months. Maybe a get together is in order.

 

Agreed 100% that any mechanical or electrical part has a service life and can fail at any time including during that expected good service life.  Though regular maintenance, and preventative maintenance replacing worn parts or parts that are nearing the end of their expected service life mitigates that risk to what I believe is an acceptable rate. 

 

From what I have read the VP44 has a short expected service life, and a possible long service life if you take care of it a specific way.  That VP44 long service life is an outlier where a VE service life is well documented.  The VE pump has a long expected service life which in high performance use is double the "maybe possible" service life of a VP44.

 

My state doesn't have yearly inspections.  The only inspection is at purchase and bi-yearly smog checks don't include diesel vehicles.

 

[dripley]

I think the VP got a bad name early on. My oe only lasted 75k. The remain Dodge put on it lasted 150k. And now 220k on this one. I am not knocking what you want to do. If the VE is what you want, go for it. 

[syndicateshop]

17 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

 

From what I have read the VP44 has a short expected service life, and a possible long service life if you take care of it a specific way.  That VP44 long service life is an outlier where a VE service life is well documented.  The VE pump has a long expected service life which in high performance use is double the "maybe possible" service life of a VP44.

All of the issues that plauged OE VP44 have been fixed. I have personally seen a truck with 1.5mil on the odo with the original VP44. The truck was featured in a few diesel magazines and online media outlets. The health and longevity of the VP44 is directly related to the supply pressure of the lift pump. 

 

17 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

 

Agreed 100% that any mechanical or electrical part has a service life and can fail at any time including during that expected good service life.  Though regular maintenance, and preventative maintenance replacing worn parts or parts that are nearing the end of their expected service life mitigates that risk to what I believe is an acceptable rate. 

Again, the life expectancy is directly related to the fuel supply pressure.

17 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

I would like to discuss cost.  From what I understand cost for a VE pump would be less than a VP44 pump over the expected service life of the pump.  Upfront costs of the swap may be more depending on how you install and with what parts you utilize.  EX: Costs dramatically increase with cam removal instead of cam gear removal.  Costs increase with billet timing cases and tuned high performance VE pumps.

Since you keep beatimg reliabilty into the equation, plan on spending just as much on a VE as a BOSCH Reman VP44. You wouldn't drop a used pump into your truck, so you have to factor in a complete rebuild into the cost of the pump. In my experience that could be anywhere from $500-1200 on top of the purchase price. It took months of tinkering to reach 27mpg with the mechanical pump. And only then it was only good for interstate driving with a light load, anything more than about 3k worth of trailer the mpg dropped to that of a stock truck. Taking the timing cover off and settimg the pump gear to get my timing dialed in. In the end, the VP44 was still the better avenue.

Edited March 23, 2018 by syndicateshop

[Me78569]

30 minutes ago, jlbayes said:

The light is very easy to remove. Just sayin lol

No go here, the CEL has to come on then turn off like normal. otherwise automatic failure.  I could easily use something to control the light to fool them, but that's me.

 

 

@LegendaryKing

 

cost of vp44

Cost of VP is ~$950  expected life is well over 100,000 these days, provided it was rebuilt correctly and it is feed good fuel.  One year warranty will catch %95 of bad rebuilds.  For me, if a part can make it to 100,000 then it is not unreliable.  some cars dont make it to 100,000 miles.

 

$1000

 

 

Cost of VE

Cost of VE is pretty much the same if you go new, if used we will say %50? that is not smart if you go through all the work.  

 

Lines made up? no clue honestly ppump lines are ~$400, again cut that in half $200 for used. 

 

Injector rework, $20 per injector $120 total

 

timing cover case ~$250 again %50 for used $125

 

overflow $25 ( who knows really)

 

cam gear ~$100

 

So for a used pump and used parts you are at $1070  For new stuff you are ~ double that.  

 

 

 

 

Point is for the cost of doing it with all new parts you could buy 2 vp44's.

 

 

that's not to say you shouldn't do it if you want to, but in terms of $$ it doesn't make sense if your only goal is reliablity.  Nothings more reliable than a spare part.

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

38 minutes ago, syndicateshop said:

In the end, the VP44 was still the better avenue.

 

Sure is. 

38 minutes ago, syndicateshop said:

Taking the timing cover off and settimg the pump gear to get my timing dialed in.

 

Man, I love it when I just pull my cellphone out of my pocket and set my timing. 

 

On a VE pump you have to buy the special dial gauge that screws into the center of the pump. This measures the plunger lift and timing. Not a cheap tool. Way easier to just grab my cellphone and Quadzilla iQuad app and set the timing to what I want. If you take look over at 3rd Gen at the Smarty UDC tunning you see what Smarty touch can do for the VP44 trucks. 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[LegendaryKing]

3 hours ago, dripley said:

I think the VP got a bad name early on. My oe only lasted 75k. The remain Dodge put on it lasted 150k. And now 220k on this one. I am not knocking what you want to do. If the VE is what you want, go for it. 

 

It sure did get a bad name.  The internet hates it, and every fleet diesel mechanic I know hates it from their personal experience.

 

I'm seeking knowlege before I jump head first into this and this forum is doing an EXCELLENT job of providing information and for that I am thankful.

 

3 hours ago, syndicateshop said:

All of the issues that plauged OE VP44 have been fixed. I have personally seen a truck with 1.5mil on the odo with the original VP44. The truck was featured in a few diesel magazines and online media outlets. The health and longevity of the VP44 is directly related to the supply pressure of the lift pump. 

 

Again, the life expectancy is directly related to the fuel supply pressure.

Since you keep beatimg reliabilty into the equation, plan on spending just as much on a VE as a BOSCH Reman VP44. You wouldn't drop a used pump into your truck, so you have to factor in a complete rebuild into the cost of the pump. In my experience that could be anywhere from $500-1200 on top of the purchase price. It took months of tinkering to reach 27mpg with the mechanical pump. And only then it was only good for interstate driving with a light load, anything more than about 3k worth of trailer the mpg dropped to that of a stock truck. Taking the timing cover off and settimg the pump gear to get my timing dialed in. In the end, the VP44 was still the better avenue.

 

So, once you got the timing correct for your truck, there was no difference between a VE and VP44?  The only difference was the VP44 was easier because mechanical timing is difficult to set?

 

2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

No go here, the CEL has to come on then turn off like normal. otherwise automatic failure.  I could easily use something to control the light to fool them, but that's me.

 

 

@LegendaryKing

 

cost of vp44

Cost of VP is ~$950  expected life is well over 100,000 these days, provided it was rebuilt correctly and it is feed good fuel.  One year warranty will catch %95 of bad rebuilds.  For me, if a part can make it to 100,000 then it is not unreliable.  some cars dont make it to 100,000 miles.

 

$1000

 

 

Cost of VE

Cost of VE is pretty much the same if you go new, if used we will say %50? that is not smart if you go through all the work.  

 

Lines made up? no clue honestly ppump lines are ~$400, again cut that in half $200 for used. 

 

Injector rework, $20 per injector $120 total

 

timing cover case ~$250 again %50 for used $125

 

overflow $25 ( who knows really)

 

cam gear ~$100

 

So for a used pump and used parts you are at $1070  For new stuff you are ~ double that.  

 

 

 

 

Point is for the cost of doing it with all new parts you could buy 2 vp44's.

 

 

that's not to say you shouldn't do it if you want to, but in terms of $$ it doesn't make sense if your only goal is reliablity.  Nothings more reliable than a spare part.

 

 

 

I'll be honest, I didn't realize the VP44's had dropped that much in price.  $950 isn't too unreasonable.

 

VE connects to factory lines via an adapter. ~$20

 

Injectors don't factor into the price of the swap in my circumstance IMHO.  I'm going to have to do injectors anyway for the power I want to make no matter what pump is on the truck.  Stock injectors just aren't going to cut it. 

 

Why would I need a cam gear?

 

Overflow/Fuel Pressure regulator $46 new.

 

Timing case would be used, no need to go new on that. 

 

Pump should be new.

 

2 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Sure is. 

 

Man, I love it when I just pull my cellphone out of my pocket and set my timing. 

 

On a VE pump you have to buy the special dial gauge that screws into the center of the pump. This measures the plunger lift and timing. Not a cheap tool. Way easier to just grab my cellphone and Quadzilla iQuad app and set the timing to what I want. If you take look over at 3rd Gen at the Smarty UDC tunning you see what Smarty touch can do for the VP44 trucks. 

 

What can Smarty UDC touch do for the VP44 trucks?

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

11 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

What can Smarty UDC touch do for the VP44 trucks?

 

Even more in depth. I'm supposed to be doing work with SmartyResource on building up tech tips and so for 24V Cummins. But my Smarty went back to Portland to be looked at (no communication issues). It way more in depth over the Quadzilla. Quadzilla is much easier for newbie tuner vs Smarty Touch which takes a lot of consideration before just tweaking the tables. 

 

 

Again all these tunning options go away as soon as the VP44 gets swap with VE pump. Then you'll blindly fight tuning and expensive tools for timing and constantly getting dirty working on the timing all the time.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

A healthly VP44 is going to be more dynamic in use than a VE.     the VE has variable timing, but it is advance as rpms increase.  IE at 1200 rpm you get ~15* of timing but at 2500 rpm you get 22* of timing or whatever the ramp up rate is.

 

with the VP44 we can go " well throttle is light and we are at 1400 rpm so timing should be say 20*, then as soon as you put your foot into it timing can drop to 12* at the same 1400 rpm to help get the turbo going and keep cylinder pressure in check, then as rpms increase you can ramp up fueling as fast or slow as you like.  

 

the VE timing allows you to meet 1 requirement, towing or racing or whatever.  the vp timing allows you to have various timing curves in various situtations.  

 

same goes for duration.  You can code in an antitheft mode on the fly, valet mode, emissions mode, tow mode etc etc etc.   

 

The VE pump is cool, but I don't believe reliablity is a reason to make the jump alone.   the VP world has come along ways.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Me78569

[LegendaryKing]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Even more in depth. I'm supposed to be doing work with SmartyResource on building up tech tips and so for 24V Cummins. But my Smarty went back to Portland to be looked at (no communication issues). It way more in depth over the Quadzilla. Quadzilla is much easier for newbie tuner vs Smarty Touch which takes a lot of consideration before just tweaking the tables. 

 

 

Again all these tunning options go away as soon as the VP44 gets swap with VE pump. Then you'll blindly fight tuning and expensive tools for timing and constantly getting dirty working on the timing all the time.

 

That is phenomenal.  How do I get that tuner?  Is that available right now?

 

5 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

A healthly VP44 is going to be more dynamic in use than a VE.     the VE has variable timing, but it is advance as rpms increase.  IE at 1200 rpm you get ~15* of timing but at 2500 rpm you get 22* of timing or whatever the ramp up rate is.

 

with the VP44 we can go " well throttle is light and we are at 1400 rpm so timing should be say 20*, then as soon as you put your foot into it timing can drop to 12* at the same 1400 rpm to help get the turbo going and keep cylinder pressure in check, then as rpms increase you can ramp up fueling as fast or slow as you like.  

 

the VE timing allows you to meet 1 requirement, towing or racing or whatever.  the vp timing allows you to have various timing curves in various situtations.  

 

same goes for duration.  You can code in an antitheft mode on the fly, valet mode, emissions mode, tow mode etc etc etc.   

 

The VE pump is cool, but I don't believe reliablity is a reason to make the jump alone.   the VP world has come along ways.

 

We do the same thing on gasoline engines with regards to ignition timing and load.  The question I would have is how do you perform this type of tuning on a diesel.  With a gasoline engine I pump up the ignition timing until the power plateaus then I know I'm a good few degrees away from detonation.  With an engine that runs on cylinder pressure combustion I'm curious how we can do that.

[Mopar1973Man]

5 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

That is phenomenal.  How do I get that tuner?  Is that available right now?

 

Smarty Touch (60 HP tuner)

https://smartyresource.com/store/product/39-smarty-touch/

 

Quadzilla Adrenaline (180 HP tuner)

http://quadzillapower.com/products/adrenaline/adrenaline-with-iquadbt-for-android-devices/

Edited March 23, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

The Quadzilla ADR gives you the ablity to control duration and timing related to sensor inputs / conditions. 

 

 

 

Smarty UDC pro is a more in depth tuning platform that lets you alter the tables in the ECM directly.  Due to the nature of how the VP44 system works you are limited to ~%12 duration over stock with UDC Pro.

 

The Quadzilla is a wiretap box so you get similar tuning ablity, but you also get wiretap fueling so you get a lot more duration on command.  

 

I prefer the Quadzilla as it is MUCH easier to get started with, and it is MUCH MUCH cheaper when you consider $$ per HP.     UDC pro does have it's place, but I have yet to see a UDC pro tuned run better than the quadzilla tuned trucks.  I know it is possible, but the time it takes to tune to that point is reducing returns.    The quadzilla lets you do things the oem system wont allow, which is nice as well.

[Mopar1973Man]

7 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

I prefer the Quadzilla as it is MUCH easier to get started with, and it is MUCH MUCH cheaper when you consider $$ per HP.

 

Bingo... Absolutely correct.

[LegendaryKing]

Ok, wow.  So many questions.

Wire tap simply increases injector duration (pulsewidth) beyond the maximum duration the VP44 will allow.  Is there a minimum duration for the VP44?

Is the smarty live?  In other words if I make a change in the map does it affect what is going on right now?
If it is live, does it show the live cell it is operating in?
If it is not live does it provide dataloging?
What maps does the smarty provide?

[Mopar1973Man]

11 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

Is the smarty live?  In other words if I make a change in the map does it affect what is going on right now?

 

No. You must remove the Smarty tuner module set up the PC software program your tune and flash it back to the Smarty tuner. 

 

Quadzilla is Live. If you make the changes on your cellphone or mobile device the tune becomes active INSTANTLY. 

 

11 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

If it is live, does it show the live cell it is operating in?

 

No again this is all done in PC software on your computer at home. Again you plug into a USB cord to flash your tune to the Smarty tuner. Now on the Quadzilla this is live where if you can safely plug in a change of variable it will flash the tuner as you drive.  Quadzilla will show timing in real time. 

 

11 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

If it is not live does it provide dataloging?

 

Both tuners have data logging ability.

 

11 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

What maps does the smarty provide?

 

Just there base tune maps that's all beyond that it's up to you. MM3 would be without tunes at all.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

The pulse width limitation is a communication limitation, not a vp44 limitation.   The data stream is formatted as 2^12 so once you hit that limit you can't command more without wiretap.

 

Minimum duration is no fuel.  So the limit for a fueling command is 0 to 4095.  Then wiretap takes it from there.

 

The quadzilla is on the fly adjustable sin e it is a piggy back tuner.  Udc pro requires that you move your tunes from the PC to the device via micro SD card.  Lvl changes I think are on the fly if you have the command mod device along with the smarty touch /mm3..   still not sure if that works for a 2nd gen.

[LegendaryKing]

10 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Both tuners have data logging ability.

 

 

Just there base tune maps that's all beyond that it's up to you. MM3 would be without tunes at all.

 

What parameters can you datalog in the smarty?

 

Not what tunes, which maps can you adjust?  Base fuel?  Altitude fuel? Injector slope? Torque management? etc etc etc.  What is actually available to modify in my truck?

 

1 minute ago, Me78569 said:

The pulse width limitation is a communication limitation, not a vp44 limitation.   The data stream is formatted as 2^12 so once you hit that limit you can't command more without wiretap.

 

Minimum duration is no fuel.  So the limit for a fueling command is 0 to 4095.  Then wiretap takes it from there.

 

The quadzilla is on the fly adjustable sin e it is a piggy back tuner.  Udc pro requires that you move your tunes from the PC to the device via micro SD card.  Lvl changes I think are on the fly if you have the command mod device along with the smarty touch /mm3..   still not sure if that works for a 2nd gen.

 

The reason I asked about a minimum injector duration is multi-fold but can be summed up quickly. 

 

If you can only command a max of "X" duration simply increase the size of the injector to add the fuel you want at that "X" duration.  Then adjust the duration of injector pulsewidth down everywhere else thereby eliminating the whole wiretap.  The problem with this is being able to control the injector at short duration such as idle.  Depending on the cc/physical attributes of an injector depends on how quickly it can open and close and what the minimum amount of fuel you can inject.

 

Not being live isn't a deal breaker, but it does extend tuning time.  Test & data-log, change, test & data-log to confirm changes had the outcome you desired.

 

[Mopar1973Man]

Then I would have to suggest that you jump ship and head over to https://smartyresource.com/forums/ and ask over there. I know that none of the staff will suggest any tuning but the rest of the forum members should be able to help out. 

 

You can ask @AH64ID he's a big Smarty Tuner guy and might be able to help out.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

46 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

 

What parameters can you datalog in the smarty?

 

Not what tunes, which maps can you adjust?  Base fuel?  Altitude fuel? Injector slope? Torque management? etc etc etc.  What is actually available to modify in my truck?

 

 

The reason I asked about a minimum injector duration is multi-fold but can be summed up quickly. 

 

If you can only command a max of "X" duration simply increase the size of the injector to add the fuel you want at that "X" duration.  Then adjust the duration of injector pulsewidth down everywhere else thereby eliminating the whole wiretap.  The problem with this is being able to control the injector at short duration such as idle.  Depending on the cc/physical attributes of an injector depends on how quickly it can open and close and what the minimum amount of fuel you can inject.

 

Not being live isn't a deal breaker, but it does extend tuning time.  Test & data-log, change, test & data-log to confirm changes had the outcome you desired.

 

that is the basic idea.  that 500hp+ area is where wiretap seems to shine.  that and extending rpms.  

 

 idle state is not really any issue, the ecm does a pretty good job of managing idle without worry, even with big injectors.  you dont have access to those tables anyways, just setting idle speed.

 

 

As for what maps, download the software and play with it you can see the oem tune in demo mode.    keep in mind our trucks are alittle "old".  The base timing map is also missing, but I dont know that you really need to alter that.  Also things like "timing max" setting doen't really make sense.  It is referencing something, but there is no documentation to say what.

 

If you are up for the learning curve then it might be a good fit for you.   I know the tuners that sell vp44 tunes don't really have a great grasp on it yet so I can't recommend anyone to build them tunes.   That and the cost is nutso by the time you are done for most.   

 

keep in mind that the quadzilla is well proven as to what it can do and it is significantly cheaper.   I have yet to see a clean running vp44 truck with bigger than 7 x .010 injectors using udc pro.  Doesn't mean it can't be done, just that you would be the first to share what you came up with.  

 

 

 

 

@Mopar1973Man  is datalogging actually on vp trucks?  the verbage they use is not clear. 

Here are the PID's they list for the vp trucks.  I would guess, if the datalogging works, that you get these?  again our trucks are old.

Quote

PID Group	PID Short name	PID Long name
ADVALUES	KeyC	Key Counter
PERCENTAGE	Load-%	Engine Load % Calculated
PERCENTAGE	TP-%	Throttle Position
PRESSURE	Boost	Boost Pressure
PRESSURE	GP-A	Governor Pressure Actual
PRESSURE	GP-D	Governor Pressure Desired
PRESSURE	GP-DC	Governor Pressure Duty Cycle
PRESSURE	GP-V	Governor Pressure Sensor Volt
PRESSURE	Oil-P	Oil Pressure Sensor
RPM	CAM-RPM	Camshaft RPM
RPM	ES	Engine Speed
RPM	InjP-ES	Injection Pump Engine Speed
SPEED	Speed	Vehicle Speed
TEMPERATURE	AA/B-T	Ambient Air/Battery Temperature
TEMPERATURE	ECT	Engine Coolant Temperature
TEMPERATURE	InjP-FT	Injection Pump Fuel Temp
TEMPERATURE	IAT	Intake Air Temperature
TEMPERATURE	EGT-Ext	SMARTY EGT Sensor External Temp
TEMPERATURE	EGT-Int	SMARTY EGT Sensor Internal Temp
TEMPERATURE	STC-IT	SMARTY Touch Controller Internal Temp
TRANSMISSION	TOS-S	Trans Output Shaft Speed
TRANSMISSION	TRANS-ST	Trans SUMP Temperature
TRANSMISSION	TRANS-SV	Trans SUMP Temperature Volt
VOLT	Boost-V	Boost Pressure Sensor Volt
VOLT	CV-A	Charging Voltage Actual
VOLT	CV-D	Charging Voltage Desired
VOLT	ECM-V	ECM Volt
VOLT	ECT-V	Engine Coolant Temp Sensor Volt
VOLT	InjP-BV	Injection Pump Battery Volt
VOLT	IAT-V	Intake Air Temp Volt
VOLT	Oil-V	Oil Pressure Sensor Volt
VOLT	STC-SV	SMARTY Touch Controller Supply Volt
VOLT	TP-V	Throttle Position Volt
VOLT	WIF-V	Water in Fuel Volt

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Me78569