01 24v VP44 to VE Swap (info gathering)

[Mopar1973Man]

16 hours ago, Me78569 said:

@Mopar1973Man  is datalogging actually on vp trucks?  the verbage they use is not clear. 

Here are the PID's they list for the vp trucks.  I would guess, if the datalogging works, that you get these?  again our trucks are old.

 

As far as I understand the same data logging that CR engines have we'll have just with the parameters that VP44 provides. 

[LegendaryKing]

23 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Then I would have to suggest that you jump ship and head over to https://smartyresource.com/forums/ and ask over there. I know that none of the staff will suggest any tuning but the rest of the forum members should be able to help out. 

 

You can ask @AH64ID he's a big Smarty Tuner guy and might be able to help out.

 

I just signed up.  Thanks for the information. 

 

22 hours ago, Me78569 said:

that is the basic idea.  that 500hp+ area is where wiretap seems to shine.  that and extending rpms.  

 

 idle state is not really any issue, the ecm does a pretty good job of managing idle without worry, even with big injectors.  you dont have access to those tables anyways, just setting idle speed.

 

 

As for what maps, download the software and play with it you can see the oem tune in demo mode.    keep in mind our trucks are alittle "old".  The base timing map is also missing, but I dont know that you really need to alter that.  Also things like "timing max" setting doen't really make sense.  It is referencing something, but there is no documentation to say what.

 

 

If you are up for the learning curve then it might be a good fit for you.   I know the tuners that sell vp44 tunes don't really have a great grasp on it yet so I can't recommend anyone to build them tunes.   That and the cost is nutso by the time you are done for most.   

 

keep in mind that the quadzilla is well proven as to what it can do and it is significantly cheaper.   I have yet to see a clean running vp44 truck with bigger than 7 x .010 injectors using udc pro.  Doesn't mean it can't be done, just that you would be the first to share what you came up with.  

 

 

 

 

@Mopar1973Man  is datalogging actually on vp trucks?  the verbage they use is not clear. 

Here are the PID's they list for the vp trucks.  I would guess, if the datalogging works, that you get these?  again our trucks are old.

 

 

 

The learning curve shouldn't be that difficult.  I haven't looked at the software yet, but so long as the necessary tables are available in the software than just about anything is possible.  I have a lot of history tuning OEM computers, standalone computers, and piggy back tuners.

 

You guys hit my weakness with pure kryptonite by showing me the smarty udc! I just may keep the VP.  We'll see after I look through the software. 

 

6 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

As far as I understand the same data logging that CR engines have we'll have just with the parameters that VP44 provides. 

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Me78569]

I look forward to your results.  PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE document your progress with it.  Videos etc  I am very curious to see the gains that could be had by using UDC vs the quadzilla.

 

Snap throttle in lugged situtations, WOT take off etc.  

 

If it were me I would do some 7 x .012 injectors and a 62sxe

[LegendaryKing]

6 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

I look forward to your results.  PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE document your progress with it.  Videos etc  I am very curious to see the gains that could be had by using UDC vs the quadzilla.

 

Snap throttle in lugged situtations, WOT take off etc.  

 

If it were me I would do some 7 x .012 injectors and a 62sxe

 

I don't know that you will see a power difference between the two.  You may see transitional differences in environments that differ from where the truck was originally tuned.  That is wholey dependent on how/what maps the quadzilla uses.  From my VERY limited perusal quadzilla seems to hit the global adder tables.  Nothing wrong with that at all!  Just not my preference as sometimes additional resolution helps with those transitions.

 

What is the stock injector size in my 01 HO?

 

 

I would like to match the performance/specs of the current generation cummins trucks, maybe exceed it by a tad.  That is why I really like the work you did with the arduino VGT turbo.  Double the current power of the truck, but keep it in an OEM range. ;)

[Me78569]

The Quadzilla doesn't do anything to the OEM tables.   It alters the fueling command of the ecm based on user input for eash psi of boost.  So you get hte resolution of the oem map, with a multiplier to add or pull fuel. 

 

for timing it takes calculations based on current conditions/ sensors vs what the user wants at given points then outputs on a sort of linear on the fly "map"   no real maps, all calculations.  

 

So fueling resolution is the same as oem, timing resolution is greater than oem.  

 

 

 

Power difference is not really of concern, the quad has wiretap so that just throws the hp compare out the window.  

 

I am curious about being able to control smoke with big injectors in various situtations without loosing power.   I want to see a big injector truck being used for daily duty / towing.  

 

I think stock injectors are 7 x .0075 or similar.   to hit 500 hp on canbus fueling you will need 7 x .012's 

 

I was a big fan of the vgt.  Sub 450 hp it is hard to beat the vgt.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Me78569

[LegendaryKing]

2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

The Quadzilla doesn't do anything to the OEM tables.   It alters the fueling command of the ecm based on user input for eash psi of boost.  So you get hte resolution of the oem map, with a multiplier to add or pull fuel. 

 

for timing it takes calculations based on current conditions/ sensors vs what the user wants at given points then outputs on a sort of linear on the fly "map"   no real maps, all calculations.  

 

So fueling resolution is the same as oem, timing resolution is greater than oem.  

 

 

 

Power difference is not really of concern, the quad has wiretap so that just throws the hp compare out the window.  

 

I am curious about being able to control smoke with big injectors in various situtations without loosing power.   I want to see a big injector truck being used for daily duty / towing.  

 

I think stock injectors are 7 x .0075 or similar.   to hit 500 hp on canbus fueling you will need 7 x .012's 

 

I was a big fan of the vgt.  Sub 450 hp it is hard to beat the vgt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So the quadzilla works like the old school Haltech Interceptor and Greddy e-manage.  Interesting. 

 

Why does no one rate injectors by what they flow?

[Mopar1973Man]

2 hours ago, LegendaryKing said:

Why does no one rate injectors by what they flow?

 

Big Bang Injectors (BBi) are sold by flow rate but they are all CR injectors. 

 

@LegendaryKing I sent a PM over to Brian at SmartyResource to get his attention and help you out on getting the product you need and possible hooking you up with tuning information.

[LegendaryKing]

13 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Big Bang Injectors (BBi) are sold by flow rate but they are all CR injectors. 

 

@LegendaryKing I sent a PM over to Brian at SmartyResource to get his attention and help you out on getting the product you need and possible hooking you up with tuning information.

 

Sounds good.  I appreciate it. 

[jlbayes]

On 3/24/2018 at 7:24 PM, LegendaryKing said:

Why does no one rate injectors by what they flow?

 

There are some that do. One I know of at least. In wet liters per minute.

[Me78569]

@LegendaryKing   any update?

[burnt_servo]

it isn't the injection pump that makes the fuel millage , it is the cam shaft .

 

they changed up camshaft profiles in the 24v engines to reduced cylinder pressures and reduce nox emissions .... this had a side effect of reducing mileage . 

 

change the camshaft and watch your millage be comparable to the ve engines . 

 

the most reliable thing to do with your engine and truck is to leave it as stock  as possible . a ve or p pump isn't a magic cure and both introduce their own issues equal the vp 44 . 

[syndicateshop]

1 minute ago, burnt_servo said:

it isn't the injection pump that makes the fuel millage , it is the cam shaft .

 

they changed up camshaft profiles in the 24v engines to reduced cylinder pressures and reduce nox emissions .... this had a side effect of reducing mileage

I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit. The VE and VP 44 both saw better mpg because of dynamic timing as opposed to the static timing of the ppump.  My personal best was 28mpg higway with a VE 24v in a crew cab square body chevy. There is definitely am advantage over the PPUMP in reguards to mileage

[Mopar1973Man]

32 minutes ago, syndicateshop said:

The VE and VP 44 both saw better mpg because of dynamic timing as opposed to the static timing of the ppump. 

 

I tend to agree but the VP44 is capable of so much more being its factors in several things that VE can't. VE has a simple intake temp solenoid to give advancement in the cold start conditions. The values below can be worked up in a way better timing table.

• Fuel Temperature
• IAT Temperature
• Coolant Temperature

P-Pump was static timing, no adjustment for anything. This was another factor for the P-pump lifespan and why it was drop so quickly. The 1996 OBDII law kicked in and forced Cummins / Dodge to switch up to the VP44 to meet that requirement. 

 

36 minutes ago, syndicateshop said:

My personal best was 28mpg higway with a VE 24v in a crew cab square body chevy.

 

My personal best with my truck is 27.2 MPG hand math. Edge Comp, +50 HP injectors, HX35W turbo and stock 3 inch exhaust. 

 

37 minutes ago, syndicateshop said:

There is definitely am advantage over the PPUMP in reguards to mileage

 

Absolutely. Everyone I watch convert a 24V over to a P-pump the first thing they whine about is the MPG's dropping lower than the VP44 did in stock form. I will admit the P-pump will pump more fuel and preferred by racing folks but still in all daily drive converted 24V will never be able to catch the mid 20's for MPG's. Never happen.

 

42 minutes ago, burnt_servo said:

they changed up camshaft profiles in the 24v engines to reduced cylinder pressures and reduce nox emissions .... this had a side effect of reducing mileage

 

That change also went on to the 3rd Gen where they also change the exhaust lobe to create an in-cylinder EGR event. It true that 24V mileage is reduced compared to a stock 6BT engine. 24V 2nd Gen was the starting edge of the emission standards and we got hit with a few mild things. Nothing too bad.

[Me78569]

chillax you two.   

MPG comes from more than just the cam.   Dynamic timing plays a major role.   Cam also plays a role.  

[Dieselfuture]

[LegendaryKing]

On 4/22/2018 at 3:53 PM, Me78569 said:

@LegendaryKing   any update?

 

Nothing new on the truck.  Been working on a certification for work and haven't had a spare minute in the last 60+ days and probably won't for another 90+. 

[LegendaryKing]

Truck:

2001 1 ton Quad Cab 4x4 6 speed HO 24v 5.9 VP44 150k miles

Diamond Eye 4” stainless exhaust

Fuel Boss lift pump w/ big line kit 

Stock other than that

 

Philosophy of use:

Truck is to be a safe and reliable daily driver.  Truck will also be used to tow a small camper short and long distances.  Reliability, fuel economy, and towing capability with low EGT’s are more important than a large dyno number.

 

Goal:

Reliable 24v in the 400-500hp range (Number is less important than a good running truck).

Keeping the VP44

 

 

 

Trying to decide if RV275's and tuner are the best route (staying mild and reliable) or if I should go wild with much larger injectors and a turbo(s) upgrade.  I'm looking for recipes and don't know when things start to break in the drive line/engine. 

 

Really liking the SMARTY Touch with UDC Pro

 

On the plus side the truck pulled a 3,500lb camper up 6% grades and I only had to down shift into 5th occasionally.  Most of the time it kept pulling at the 65-70mph range in 6th gear.  Unfortunately the truck STILL has ridiculously slow acceleration. 

[Mopar1973Man]

4 minutes ago, LegendaryKing said:

On the plus side the truck pulled a 3,500lb camper up 6% grades and I only had to down shift into 5th occasionally.  Most of the time it kept pulling at the 65-70mph range in 6th gear.  Unfortunately the truck STILL has ridiculously slow acceleration. 

 

You might read over my tire find...

Huge improvement to acceleration dropping from 31" tires down to 30" tires which now give me the final ratio of about 3.69 to 1 to the ground. I'm so quick now I'm whipping 4th gen on the city streets. I'm liking the 245/75 R16 profile and plan on switch the 1996 Dodge over to 215/85 R16 which is the same 30 inch tire but 8 inch wide face. 

[LegendaryKing]

25 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

You might read over my tire find...

Huge improvement to acceleration dropping from 31" tires down to 30" tires which now give me the final ratio of about 3.69 to 1 to the ground. I'm so quick now I'm whipping 4th gen on the city streets. I'm liking the 245/75 R16 profile and plan on switch the 1996 Dodge over to 215/85 R16 which is the same 30 inch tire but 8 inch wide face. 

 

I have 4.10 gears and you have the 3.55's according to your article.

Stock tires are 245/75 R16

Currently running 265/65 R18

[Mopar1973Man]

Yeah you needed to go up.