Head gasket replacement

[trreed]

Hope this isn’t your machine shop!

Edited March 28, 2019 by trreed

[dripley]

5 hours ago, 015point9 said:

http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2001/09-002-01.htm

 

Worth a read, however above pic looks better imo

At least that has part #'s for them. They were not in the FSM.

 

5 hours ago, trreed said:

The turbo will seem tighter since the oil that is in there probably was spun out of the gap between the shaft and the bearing.  I wouldn't worry too much about it.  

 

For removal of the valve train, position does not matter.  Installation is where you want to torque down the rocker arms with no spring tension, i.e. setting the motor to TDC to do standard valve lash and then torquing intake rockers 1-2-4 and exhaust rockers 1-3-5.

Appreciate the info. Turbo had me worried a bit. Went ahead with the disassembly figuring it did not matter. Makes sense on reassembly.

 

3 minutes ago, trreed said:

Hope this isn’t your machine shop!

Thats a funny one right there. I got it off this pm and taking to the machine tommorow am. More pictures to follow in a bit.

2 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

Good luck to you along the way.

I also did not reuse steel retainers on exhaust bolts, so far it's fine. What treed said on everything else. Since you didn't separate turbo and the manifold I would leave it be for now you can always rebuild it later. It may another few hundred thousand.

Probably going to have wait and see where this takes me.

[IBMobile]

16 minutes ago, dripley said:

Probably going to have wait and see where this takes me

With that many miles on the turbo It might be a good idea to inspect it for play at every oil change from now on.

[dripley]

Just now, IBMobile said:

With that many miles on the turbo It might be a good idea to inspect it for play at every oil change from now on.

I started doing that about 200k ago. Maybe not every oil change but most of them. Kept expecting  some play to show up. Not so far though. 

[dripley]

I got the head off this pm. The ony thing that held me up was the cold temps this morning and doing this alone.

From this 

 To this

I didn't  get inspect the cylinders to closely and did not rotate the engine but cross hatching is still visible and no scoring was observed. I will dig into that deeper tomorrow.

 

I did however find this on the rockers and shafts.

It shows up better in this picture of the rocker. It is scarring. I can feel it with fingernail but they dont catch my fingernail. Replace or not, that is the question? This is present on all but 2 intake and one xhaust.

 

The offending gasket.

A little closer view of the offending corner, lower right.

 

Question time again.

 

1. The rockers and shafts. Replace or not?

 

2. How to clean the deck of the block? I am used to cleaning surfaces for new gaskets with razor blade. Seems that will invite debris into the cylinders. Better suggestions would be welcome. 

 

3. Does this cleaning need to be to bare metal?

 

That all I got for now. I will get some better pictures of the cylinders tomorrow when I get back from the machine shop.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by dripley

[Dieselfuture]

7 hours ago, dripley said:

1. The rockers and shafts. Replace or not?

 

Personally I would not put it back together the way it is. I got new trunnions from Manton pushrods and reused rockers after cleaning holes with Scotch-Brite. 

http://mantonpushrods.com/products/diesel-rockerarm-hardware/

It's kind of an expensive option but that's what I chose to do.

For you this may be a better way to go

https://www.mddistributorsstore.com/item/cum4995602/cummins-rocker-lever-assy-intake-and-exhaust-cummins-5.9l-6.7l/1.html

7 hours ago, dripley said:

2. How to clean the deck of the block? 

I used a vacuum cleaner as I was scraping, then I seen a video of someone trying to use a flat sharping stone to go back and forth on the block. I had a new one for sharpening knives I tried, but I didn't get carried away with it. It's easy to round off edges if you're not careful. Then I use lots of high-strength carb clean, I sprayed it in holes where the bolts go in and used vacuum to clean them up. Put vacuum next to a hole and have it running as you spray carb clean down the hole and you can see dirt and stuff coming right out. 

 

7 hours ago, dripley said:

3. Does this cleaning need to be to bare metal?

Better you clean it better off you are. 

[dripley]

17 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

Personally I would not put it back together the way it is. I got new trunnions from Manton pushrods and reused rockers after cleaning holes with Scotch-Brite. 

Were your rocker not scored as bad as the trunions? Mine are about equal. The pedastals looked fine. All of the scoring on mine appeared on the top. Not sure I could re move it with a scotch brite.    

[dave110]

I'd try cutting some open cell foam packing type material to fit in the cylinders. Put a screw down through to use as a handle to pull out and push in the hole just below flush. Do the scraping and clean up, remove and repeat. Or cut out 6 of them and do all at once.

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, dripley said:

Were your rocker not scored as bad as the trunions? Mine are about equal. The pedastals looked fine. All of the scoring on mine appeared on the top. Not sure I could re move it with a scotch brite.    

Both were galled up, Scotch-Brite doesn't make it smooth it just polishes it up a little. 

You can see in an aftermarket trunnion there is a groove cut sideways so oil can get all through the rocker surface. Plus trunion is made out of tool steel and according to Manton should never wear out. He said because the trunion and rocker were made out of same steel they ate each other up.

[pepsi71ocean]

@dripley porting and cutting the exhaust is the the largest benefit. Better spool and lowers egts. But it's only worry it to do it when you have the head off. 

 

The problem with the intake side is that you don't see much benefit till you cut the plum off. But that's a waste of time intake flows good, it's the exhaust that needs help.

[JAG1]

I don't know how significant this may be, but I would like to know Dripley, what brand oil you are using? 

 

And how many other people found the same scoring when doing their head replacement?

[dripley]

7 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

I don't know how significant this may be, but I would like to know Dripley, what brand oil you are using? 

 

And how many other people found the same scoring when doing their head replacement?

 

I used Rotella for quite a long time and have been using Delo 400. Boyh regular dino oil. I have never used synthetic.

I remeber seeing here a real high strength cerb cleaner. Any body know what it is? I stopped at an AA I use some times and the guy there recomended using aircraft paint stripper, which they had. The carb cleaner they carry is run of the mill stuff everyone has.

[Dieselfuture]

45 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

And how many other people found the same scoring when doing their head replacement?

This is a common problem, new Cummins models are switching to better trunion design. Has nothing to do with oil.

 

38 minutes ago, dripley said:

I remeber seeing here a real high strength cerb cleaner. Any body know what it is?

This is what I use on everything, 

https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-verizon&ei=m-2cXOHQDIHYjwT53aiIAg&q=berryman+b12+chemtool&oq=berryman+b12+c&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.1.0.0l2j0i67j0l2j0i67j0l2.12363.12775..13881...0.0..0.304.444.0j1j0j1......0....1.........0i71.4QAs3IGZnO8

[dripley]

1 hour ago, pepsi71ocean said:

@dripley porting and cutting the exhaust is the the largest benefit. Better spool and lowers egts. But it's only worry it to do it when you have the head off. 

 

The problem with the intake side is that you don't see much benefit till you cut the plum off. But that's a waste of time intake flows good, it's the exhaust that needs help.

I will talk with them about that. Thanks for the info.

 

Took the head to them this am. Asked them if I could watch them magna flux the head when they did it for my furthering education, he took me back and did one that was ready. Thought there was more to it than that. His buddy showed me one they had just done where the powder was sucked up in the crack. Pretty simple process. I was happy see my head was not the only 5.9 head in there also.

34 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

This is what I use on everything, 

https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-verizon&ei=m-2cXOHQDIHYjwT53aiIAg&q=berryman+b12+chemtool&oq=berryman+b12+c&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.1.0.0l2j0i67j0l2j0i67j0l2.12363.12775..13881...0.0..0.304.444.0j1j0j1......0....1.........0i71.4QAs3IGZnO8

I'll give it a try. I have used the B12 fuel adative in the small stuff around house with good succes.

Edited March 28, 2019 by dripley

[dripley]

3 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

Both were galled up, Scotch-Brite doesn't make it smooth it just polishes it up a little. 

You can see in an aftermarket trunnion there is a groove cut sideways so oil can get all through the rocker surface. Plus trunion is made out of tool steel and according to Manton should never wear out. He said because the trunion and rocker were made out of same steel they ate each other up.

That is pretty much what I am seeing on most of mine. I did a little google research and it seems to be somewhat common. Saw the blame laid on performance upgrades, CI & J oils having less ZDDP addatives, lag time on the oil reaching the rockers on start up and such. Cummins apparently has update them to include a groove cut in the trunion like your Manton you have. So my search is on for now,

[Dieselfuture]

Rocker assembly is somewhat simple to change out, you can always reuse what you have and deal with it later. It's no different than your turbo or other parts, like main bearings rod bearings or cam bearings, in a perfect world we would all rebuild our engines, for now just do the head gasket, and maybe spend money on head studs instead of rockers.

[pepsi71ocean]

4 hours ago, dripley said:

I will talk with them about that. Thanks for the info.

 

Took the head to them this am. Asked them if I could watch them magna flux the head when they did it for my furthering education, he took me back and did one that was ready. Thought there was more to it than that. His buddy showed me one they had just done where the powder was sucked up in the crack. Pretty simple process. I was happy see my head was not the only 5.9 head in there also.

I'll give it a try. I have used the B12 fuel adative in the small stuff around house with good succes.

 

I should clarify. My head's a little doofy since I've been in the hospital. 

 

 

That's a good thing to see. Yes back cutting the valves I think it's the proper term. Back cutting the valves and porting the exhaust side. Then you cut match the exhaust on the head to the manifold and you will see. 

 

But do let me know what they say I'm really interested in what they say.

 

[dripley]

1 hour ago, Dieselfuture said:

Rocker assembly is somewhat simple to change out, you can always reuse what you have and deal with it later. It's no different than your turbo or other parts, like main bearings rod bearings or cam bearings, in a perfect world we would all rebuild our engines, for now just do the head gasket, and maybe spend money on head studs instead of rockers.

It appears somewhere along the line Cummins cut the groove in theirs also. From I have been reading It would appear that later model rocker arm assemblies will fit our second gens, even out of 6.7 engines. I know they look the same and represented to fit  and the ones I have seen are used. Definitely have not convinced my self of going that route and you can buy the Cummins updated trunnion by itself just not sure that it fits the rockers I have. The assemblies might interchange but I dont know the trunnions would interchange between the early and late assemblies, if that makes any sense. I found the late model trunnions new for around $15 each. I would give that a try if I can confirm they will fit my rockers.

[trreed]

All 24 valve 5.9 valve train (VP and CR) should be identical.  I think (and that's a big think) they changed the rocker ratio for the 6.7 models, but the diameter of the trunion should be the same.

Edited March 28, 2019 by trreed

[dripley]

3 hours ago, trreed said:

All 24 valve 5.9 valve train (VP and CR) should be identical.  I think (and that's a big think) they changed the rocker ratio for the 6.7 models, but the diameter of the trunion should be the same.

In my searching today I found offers of rocker assemblies into the 6.7 early years as they would fit the 2nd gen. Though I am not convinced enough to buy. But if trunions are the same I would throw 150 bucks at a set and try and polish the rockers.