Clutch not disengaging intermittently

[Ironforger]

Ok, so I've decided to do the right thing and remove the transmission.  I don't want to take chances with a potential pilot bearing fail, especially if it's common to happen in the 200 k - 250 k mile range.

 

I'll replace the clutch assy and pilot bearing and resurface the flywheel too. 

 

Question: Does anyone know about where the balance point / center of gravity is on the NV5600?  I'm fabricating a custom transmission jack plate to mount on my 3ton floor jack. I'm designing it in such a way that it will securely hold the entire trans as well as swivel forward / back and left / right. I just need to have some idea as to where to mount it on the trans - need to know about where the center balance point is. Does not need to  be exact, just ballpark.

 

I would easily be able to figure this out if I had the trans out, but have never had the opportunity with the NV5600.  

 

Picture below. I scribed a white soapstone line at about the point where I'm guessing it would be?  Any suggestions appreciated!

 

 

I can't figure out how to upload or add my picture here, how do I add an image to my existing attachments? Just wondering if this is a subscription function limitation.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Ironforger

[dripley]

I bolted a flat piece of steel to a floor jack in place of the round cup the first time I took mine off and got the bolt about center ways of the tranny housing. It worked ok but had to have the jack almost fully extended and was precarious looking to say the least. I did this i  my gravel drive way with a piece of 3/4 plywood for a floor. That just added to my worry of it tipping over. Worked out ok though. 

[Tractorman]

I used two ratcheting straps to secure the transmission to the transmission jack.  I think in your case the ratcheting straps would work well.

 

 - John

[dripley]

I used ratchet straps also. Left that out.

[Ironforger]

I like the way you guys think! 

 

Definitely was planning to secure my jack plate to the trans with ratchet straps. I see there are clear unrestricted areas on the top front and rear of the trans.

 

Glad we're all on the same page.

 

Kudos to dripley for doing this on gravel with plywood! I at least have the luxury of a level concrete pad  ;o)

 

 

[dripley]

I did twice. Shen clutch time came I took it to shop I now. It was right before Thanksgiving and cold. Couldn't bring myself to do it.

[Ironforger]

I dropped the trans today. The issue definitely due to pilot bearing fail.  The pilot bearing was in pieces, needles falling out etc. Some wear marks on my input shaft tip too. Not sure how bad the wear is, I'm going to get some local opinions. Keeping my fingers crossed. It's my understanding that full disassembly is required to replace the input shaft.  I really would rather not rebuild or replace this trans.

 

I can't believe how light and small the pilot bearing is. Clearly weak. WAYYY weak and inferior. Total nonsense. Why on earth did they put such a tiny needle bearing in these huge powerful engines? Seriously, my 62 Ford Falcon 6cyl 170 has a better pilot setup than this.   I'm going to check with my local machinist and explore options to bore the flywheel slightly and press in a bronze bushing.

 

On another note, ran into a couple of issues while removing the trans:  The cross-member was very tight and difficult to remove.  (This is a 2wd truck).  To remove it I had to compress the cross-member with a heavy duty trucker ratchet strap, and also had to jack open the frame rails with a hydraulic ram and it was still difficult to remove.  Has anyone experienced this? Took me 2 hours to get it out. I took off the ratchet strap after I got it out and it sprung open. I measured it and it's about 1" larger than the frame rail opening. WHAT????  I'm going to compress it in a hydraulic press to close it up an bit before re-installing. Otherwise it would be impossible to get back in.

 

Another unexpected was engine wanted to tilt forward after I removed the trans. From all the vids I watched everyone had supported the oil pan on the trans side of the engine, which is what I did. Mistake. Engine must be supported in the front near the vibration damper because that engine will tilt forward with out the trans attached. Didn't see that coming!

 

Looks like the truck had the original luk clutch. Impressed to see the disc is in very good condition. Regardless I'm putting in a South Bend stage 2  ( south bend kit# 1947-OHD  ) - has extra wide disc and lighter pressure plate springs for easy clutch pedal feel.  Using my original flywheel, getting it resurfaced.

 

 

[dripley]

I did the same thing on blocking the motor, but after looking at the weight is forward of mounts. It's  the only way it can go. It hurt nothing on mine.

 

Will the ohd fit the oe flywheel? Almost went with one myself but went with the ofe instead.

[Tractorman]

1 hour ago, Ironforger said:

Some wear marks on my input shaft tip too. Not sure how bad the wear is, I'm going to get some local opinions. Keeping my fingers crossed. It's my understanding that full disassembly is required to replace the input shaft.  I really would rather not rebuild or replace this trans.

 

Sounds like your failure was identical to mine.  About 1/3 of the pilot shaft bearing area was worn to undersize on my transmission input shaft.  I elected to not replace the transmission input shaft (right or wrong) since I am my own warranty station.  The rest of the transmission is in excellent condition for 300,000 miles.

 

My next scheduled clutch replacement will be at 200,000 miles of operation - not 297,000 miles like the first time.  Hopefully I will make it 200,000 miles without transmission problems.  I have 316,000 miles on the truck now and so far, so good.

 

- John

[Rotax3006]

 My cross member was a SOB to get in and out as well (4wd)  I did basically the same thing with the hydraulic ram to spread the frame. I think I beat it out with a BFH then had to spread the frame to put it back in.  I don't remember the engine tipping thing probably did it.  Glad you found the problem. I have had mine fail twice in 256000 miles I actually liked the old brass bushing better than these phony needle bearings.  I believe with some machine work you can install a better bearing if you want.  I wouldn't worry about the shaft too much.  Just a few marks I think you could buff them up a little and be ok.   I have heard the NV 5600 is a pain to work on.  good luck

-Bill

[Ironforger]

On 6/19/2019 at 6:22 PM, Tractorman said:

 

Because of my experience, I recommend that you do a full clutch job now, before more potential damage has a chance to occur.

 

By the way, thanks Tractorman for recommending. Glad I took it apart.

 

The groove that's worn into my input shaft tip is .009 deep.  I'm reviewing my options. Possibly a bronze pilot bushing which is longer than the original pilot bearing, thus covering / straddling  the worn area of the shaft and riding the unworn area on the tip and back of the shaft. I ordered one today, looks like it's gonna be about a week before I get it due to the holiday etc.  If it fits nice without slop I'll put it in.   Trans looks good otherwise. Very little lateral play on the input shaft.

 

  I guess I'll focus on other things such as replacing the rear main seal, etc. & possibly the input shaft seal (although no signs of mine leaking).

22 hours ago, dripley said:

 

Will the ohd fit the oe flywheel? Almost went with one myself but went with the ofe instead.

 

 

I spoke with "Aron" at  Southbend before I purchased the 1947-OHD kit. He assured me it will work with the oem flywheel.

Emphasis on must resurface the flywheel since the OHD friction disc has a much wider surface area.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Ironforger

[dripley]

11 minutes ago, Ironforger said:

I spoke with "Aron" at  Southbend before I purchased the 1947-OHD kit. He assured me it will work with the oem flywheel.

Emphasis on must resurface the flywheel since the OHD friction disc has a much wider surface area.

Thats what I was remembering about the HD. I believe that  @AH64ID and his father both have one in their trucks and like them. Could be my next clutch also.

[AH64ID]

14 hours ago, dripley said:

Thats what I was remembering about the HD. I believe that  @AH64ID and his father both have one in their trucks and like them. Could be my next clutch also.

 

I had the OFE on my 05, but dad's 06 had the OHD. 

 

I much preferred the feel of the OHD and would recommend it over the OFE unless you need the added holding power. 425/900 is a pretty good rating for the OHD thou. 

[Ironforger]

13 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

 

I had the OFE on my 05, but dad's 06 had the OHD. 

 

I much preferred the feel of the OHD and would recommend it over the OFE unless you need the added holding power. 425/900 is a pretty good rating for the OHD thou. 

 

AH: that's great to hear. Can you describe the feel of the Southbend 1947-OHD compared to t he OFE? What do you like about it? The guys at South Bend told me I could expect a relatively easy pedal, as well as minimal chatter / grab yet very good holding power. They said they achieve this by means of larger friction surface of the friction disk allows them to set it up the pressure plate with weaker springs, so it  has better holding power yet softer pedal than the stage 1   1947-0 Kit.

[Ironforger]

Ok so the Oillite Bronze Pilot bushing arrived. It looks like it's going to work.  Fits nice on the tip of the input shaft. Turns smoothly. Not too tight but very little play. It's much longer than the oem needle pilot bearing -  Totally covers / straddles the damaged area so the bushing is riding on the undamaged forward and back portion of the input shaft.   I'm feeling good about this and I am NOT going to replace the input shaft on my NV5600.

 

I'm going to have my machinist press this into the flywheel.  

 

Also installing new rear main seal and input shaft seal.

 

Pictures below show:

 

- destroyed oem pilot needle bearing after I removed the trans:

 

- damaged input shaft:

 

 

- new bronze oilite pilot bushing

 

 

- the new bronze oilite pilot busing on the tip of the input shaft (shown here as an example. Fits great!!  It will be pressed into the flywheel).

[dripley]

You might want to polish the input shaft a bit for insurance. Dont think I would replace it either.

 

Glad you got the problem worked out.

[Dieselfuture]

So these bronze bushings don't require any lubricant? I was always leary about them.

[Ironforger]

9 hours ago, dripley said:

You might want to polish the input shaft a bit for insurance. Dont think I would replace it either.

 

Glad you got the problem worked out.

Will do!  I'll clean & polish that shaft without removing too much metal. Maybe I'll get my girlfriend to do it! She's a talented shaft shiner.

8 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

So these bronze bushings don't require any lubricant? I was always leary about them.

The bushing is made with "Oilite" bronze. It's impregnated with oil. Ask any machinist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oilite  Absolutely suitable for this application.  This is the way it was done back in the old school days. Less moving parts less chance of failure.

Other factors to consider: This bearing is only used while the clutch is depressed, best to put the trans in neutral while at a stop lite or stuck in traffic etc.  Food for thought: The oilite bronze bushing may eventually wear, but it will not wreck your input shaft.  A failed needle bearing will definitely wreak havoc on your input shaft as shown in my pictures above. I've had many cars and trucks with oem bronze oilite piliot bushings and have never had an epic fail like this oem dodge needle bearing.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Ironforger

[dripley]

21 minutes ago, Ironforger said:

 Will do!  I'll clean & polish that shaft without removing too much metal. Maybe I'll get my girlfriend to do it! She's a talented shaft shiner.

Maybe this one is to big???