Cutting Out Under Hard Acceleration/Above 68 MPH+ 2500 4x4 47re

[MarkG]

Howdy!  The truck: '02 2500 4x4 with the 47re transmission.  Gonna do my best to bang this out in the most concise way possible.  The problem: under hard acceleration from low speeds to highway speed and also cruising along above about 68 MPH I am experiencing what feels like a hard shudder or very quick cut outs.  Recently preformed the grounding mod described in W-T's thread "Ground Reference VP44,ECM,PCM,PDC plus TC lock/unlock".  Batteries are fairly new and terminals are clean.  VP44 and lift pump both replaced at the same time a few years ago.  VP44 came from Industrial Injection and I usually run 2 stroke oil in the fuel.  FASS Titanium 95gph lift pump.  Just changed the filters for good measure.  Years ago I installed RV275 injectors.  Never did get around to buying the Smarty, the truck still has the stock tune.  I have a scan tool, a Bluetooth unit that connects to my phone and use with the OBD Fusion app.  There are no codes present when scanned.  I've reset the APPS.  I'm frustrated and don't know what else to do and really look forward to hearing any input and advice you may be able to offer.  The truck has been taken care of.  I do service and repairs myself and there's about 150,000 on the clock.  Here's what I've come to: I think the VP44 is going bad.  It was always very noisy, the part looked old and beat up and overall I had questioned this part from the moment I pulled it from the box.   PLEASE HELP!!!!!!  and thank you! 

[IBMobile]

What is you fuel pressure at those speeds? 

[01_Cummins_4x4]

On both of my 99 Dodge Cummins with 47RE transmissions, in OD on flat ground driving I'd get a slight shudder which was the torque converter shudder that was being felt. When I had the trans rebuilt in both pickups with high quality parts, there was no more torque converter shudder.

Edited January 7, 2021 by 99_Cummins_4x4

[MarkG]

59 minutes ago, IBMobile said:

What is you fuel pressure at those speeds? 

My fuel pressure is rock solid at just a tad over 14lbs. 

1 minute ago, 99_Cummins_4x4 said:

On both of my 99 Dodge Cummins with 47RE transmissions, in OD on flat ground driving I'd get a slight shudder which was the torque converter shudder that was being felt. When I replaced the trans rebuilt in both pickups with high quality parts, there was no more torque converter shudder.

It's definitely not the transmission.  I actually replaced it chasing this issue with an upgraded unit about 4 months ago and the exact same thing is going on.  Wanted an upgrade anyway so it's all good.  But it didn't fix my problem.

[01_Cummins_4x4]

If you have a boost gauge, verify what your max boost pressure is at WOT. If you have the HY35 turbo, it should be like 32 psi max.

 

I wonder if your wastegate is stuck or out of adjustment and causing it to defuel at certain times.

 

It can still be the APPS going bad even though you reset it. You'll have to use a multi meter to verify what it is setting at and compare that to what it's supposed to be at.

 

On the VP44 pump, you need to have a DRBIII tool to check it for any pump codes. If it has any codes in history, clear them out and then drive the truck again to see if any new codes show up. Then you can determine if you have an injection pump going bad or not.

Edited January 7, 2021 by 99_Cummins_4x4

[MarkG]

15 minutes ago, 99_Cummins_4x4 said:

If you have a boost gauge, verify what your max boost pressure is at WOT. If you have the HY35 turbo, it should be like 32 psi max.

 

I wonder if your wastegate is stuck or out of adjustment and causing it to defuel at certain times.

 

It can still be the APPS going bad even though you reset it. You'll have to use a multi meter to verify what it is setting at and compare that to what it's supposed to be at.

 

On the VP44 pump, you need to have a DRBIII tool to check it for any pump codes. If it has any codes in history, clear them out and then drive the truck again to see if any new codes show up. Then you can determine if you have an injection pump going bad or not.

The only aftermarket gauge I have is fuel pressure.  I think that app on my phone has a boost gauge.  Next time I get off the ranch I'll be sure to let you know what the max boost is.  The turbo is the stock original unit equipped with a BHAF.

 

I have a multi meter and I'm not afraid to use it!  Tonight I'll poke around online and try to figure out how to test the APPS. 

 

Does the DRBIII tool plug into the OBD2 port?  Any idea if there is a unit similar to the OBD2 dongle that I have or are they expensive pro-level only tools? 

 

Thank you for your help.  I bought my truck from Withnell Dodge in Salem OR in 2012.  They took it in on trade in with only 58,000 miles on it.  I bought it sight unseen.  Got dropped off at the Sacramento airport by a friend to catch an early morning flight into Portland.  Dealership picked me up and took me to Salem.  Signed a couple papers and hit the road.  Made it home for dinner!  That was a long day...

[01_Cummins_4x4]

A DRBIII tool plugs into the OBD2 port, but it is the same tool that the dealership uses to interface with the ECM/PCM. With it you can do some troubleshooting and make some changes to them.

[dripley]

There are some pump codes that will show on a OBD code reader.  Of course the code has to be tripped to be visible. Mine failed not long after it set a 0216 code, mechanical failure. There are few other pump codes that can read with an OBD II. The DRBIII is definitely much better at communicating with the truck but pricey.

[MarkG]

1 hour ago, 99_Cummins_4x4 said:

A DRBIII tool plugs into the OBD2 port, but it is the same tool that the dealership uses to interface with the ECM/PCM. With it you can do some troubleshooting and make some changes to them.

Got it...did a little googleing and saw they were all in the $2k-3k price range.

 

I went out to get the mail today and had a chance to check the boost at WOT.  Now, I'm not sure how accurate my setup is.  It's an OBD2 bluetooth scan tool running the OBD Fusion app on my phone.  22.3lbs was the most boost it recorded.  Stock turbo.  The higher the RPM and the more load it's under the worse the condition gets.  When it kicks down it just kinda floats, really runs poorly and seems to not want to shift back up unless I lift a bit.

Edited January 8, 2021 by MarkG

[dripley]

If you are truly stock that boost is normal. The stock waste gate should open around 20 psi. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Yup. Best thing is to get a tuner so you have the boost fooler, fuel management and the timing management. The only tuner today on the market that can do all this and give 180 HP gains is Quadzilla. You could do a Smarty Touch (60 HP) but it will cost you triple the price (about $1,800 to be able to make your own tunes) and 2/3 less power. 

[MarkG]

2 hours ago, dripley said:

If you are truly stock that boost is normal. The stock waste gate should open around 20 psi. 

Right on dripley.  Thank you for your input.  I am truly stock in the tuning dept.  When I got the truck in 2012 I bought a few things.  FASS lift pump, injectors, 5" MBRP with muffler, BHAF.  Always intended to get a tuner but wanted to transmission to burn up first.  That took way longer than I thought it would.  I drive like a grandpa and go for max fuel economy so I guess I should have just hit it with the tuner all these years ago.  Think of all the money I would have saved in diesel with more MPG!!!  hahaha

[Mopar1973Man]

Matter of fact I just released a Zero Boost tune for Quadzilla that has a good street manner but on the upper end it will pour on the power if needed to pass someone. 

• 7 x 0.010 +150 HP Injectors
• HX35/40 Turbo 

Estimate on MPG is somewhere near 19 MPG at this time. Still in BETA testing of the tune. 

 

There is much more options for getting good MPG without beating up the transmission. If you purchased a Quadzilla I could build a good tune for what you have. Just shows you don't have to stay stock and get MPG too.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Mopar1973Man

[MarkG]

43 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Yup. Best thing is to get a tuner so you have the boost fooler, fuel management and the timing management. The only tuner today on the market that can do all this and give 180 HP gains is Quadzilla. You could do a Smarty Touch (60 HP) but it will cost you triple the price (about $1,800 to be able to make your own tunes) and 2/3 less power. 

MOPAR1973MAN!  Thank you for all you have contributed to the Dodge Cummins community first of all.  Can't tell you how many posts of yours I read on the other forum over the years.  I am forever grateful for your efforts to help people.  So what do you think is going on with my performance issue?  Should I take it into the dealership and have them scan it?  I'm frustrated and perplexed.  Today I'll test the APPS and go from there.  

 

What do you think of the Smarty S 0-3?  That had always been the tuner I had my eye on.  They say it's a scan tool as well.  does it read the DRBIII codes?  Does the Quadzilla?  Thank you again for everything man... 

[Mopar1973Man]

15 minutes ago, MarkG said:

So what do you think is going on with my performance issue?

I've gotta ask does this cut out occur also with cruise set? I got to know are you manual transmission with fly by wire cruise or automatic with vacuum cruise? What I like to see if your manual if cruise is set and doesn't happen then the problem is around the APPS. You could pin to pin ohm test from APPS to the ECM and the VP44 to ECM and verify the wiring is good. Still in all ECM controls what the VP44 is going to do.

 

15 minutes ago, MarkG said:

Should I take it into the dealership and have them scan it?

I don't suggest that at all. You could get a live data tool like a OBDLink LX or MX tool and then watch the live data on the CCD Bus. Watching the TPS values for dropping out or sudden changes in engine load (fueling amounts that cut out). You can do the very same without calling the dealer and paying $120 to $150 an hour. 

 

15 minutes ago, MarkG said:

What do you think of the Smarty S 0-3?

Personally not worth it. Smarty S-03 is limited to on 60 HP gain, no real timing or fuel control unless you step up to Smarty Touch but that is $1,800 tuner and now you'll have all those features but still limited to just 60 HP gain. Now Quadzilla provides full fuel, timing and other functions that Smarty can for tuning for fraction of the cost. Being I worked for Smarty for over 3 years and played with a few product I'm not impressed. Basically like @Me78569points out all Smarty does is turn the throttle into a light switch by 30% TPS signal Smarty is pouring fuel at 100%. 

 

Now compare... Full timing map 

 

Then fuel CANBus fuel map all right on your phone. No PC needed, no flashing the ECM to make adjustment (Quadzilla does this in REAL TIME). Way better tuner over Smarty S-03 or Smarty Touch. Sorry to say. 

15 minutes ago, MarkG said:

does it read the DRBIII codes? 

 

No. Smarty can't read DRBIII code nor can Quadzilla only a Dodge Dealer Star Scan can. You can see my defuel curve and my step up to stock fuel in my mid power range. Completely configurable and way more control over the engine even right down to warming up and cooling down (turbo timer) which Smarty does not have in either product. Quadzilla can't read codes but can follow way more live data right up to seen the commanded timing for the Injection pump. Something Smarty S-03 can't do. 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Mopar1973Man

[MarkG]

5 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I've gotta ask does this cut out occur also with cruise set? I got to know are you manual transmission with fly by wire cruise or automatic with vacuum cruise? What I like to see if your manual if cruise is set and doesn't happen then the problem is around the APPS. You could pin to pin ohm test from APPS to the ECM and the VP44 to ECM and verify the wiring is good. Still in all ECM controls what the VP44 is going to do.

 

I don't suggest that at all. You could get a live data tool like a OBDLink LX or MX tool and then watch the live data on the CCD Bus. Watching the TPS values for dropping out or sudden changes in engine load (fueling amounts that cut out). You can do the very same without calling the dealer and paying $120 to $150 an hour. 

 

Personally not worth it. Smarty S-03 is limited to on 60 HP gain, no real timing or fuel control unless you step up to Smarty Touch but that is $1,800 tuner and now you'll have all those features but still limited to just 60 HP gain. Now Quadzilla provides full fuel, timing and other functions that Smarty can for tuning for fraction of the cost. Being I worked for Smarty for over 3 years and played with a few product I'm not impressed. Basically like @Me78569points out all Smarty does is turn the throttle into a light switch by 30% TPS signal Smarty is pouring fuel at 100%. 

 

Now compare... Full timing map 

 

Then fuel CANBus fuel map all right on your phone. No PC needed, no flashing the ECM to make adjustment (Quadzilla does this in REAL TIME). Way better tuner over Smarty S-03 or Smarty Touch. Sorry to say. 

 

No. Smarty can't read DRBIII code nor can Quadzilla only a Dodge Dealer Star Scan can.

 

 

Automatic in my truck.  A fresh upgraded unit nonetheless.  Yes I happens when the cruise control is set.  Just cruising along the condition gets worse and worse and worse above about 68 MPH.  It's also a problem at low speeds under heavy acceleration.

 

Thank you for the input on the tuner situation.  Sounds like the Quadzilla is a no-brainer.  Bummer it can't read the DRBIII codes, it would have been so much easier to justify the purchase to my wife if it did!  Here's how that would have gone...."Give the money to the dealership or buy the tuner for the same price honey, I gotta buy it!"  But one thing is certain...I'm not buying any tuners until my damn truck is back to running tip top.  My intuition is telling me it's the VP44....

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, MarkG said:

My intuition is telling me it's the VP44

 

Which is possible too but typically when a VP44 go funny there is codes with it. Hence why I asking for pin to pin ohm test between the ECM and VP44. If the wiring is all checking out then you got to get another clue that point or give reason for expensive parts. Sad part is some times you have to let the problem mature a bit more to show its ugly head. Cutting out is electrical so I would say monitor your Engine Load number for sharp drop off. 

 

One of the perks about Quadzilla it doesn't have to be in the vehicle to watch live data. I can have my truck warming up outside and leave my phone on my desk and monitor all system functions from the comfort of my desk. 

 

Once you get a live data tool of some sort we can look at the data you've got. Quadzilla would be the best because you could data log a trip with the cut out and it would show up in the data logs so you can see everything that happen the very moment the fuel drops out. 

 

Just an example from @Me78569 data repository...

[MarkG]

3 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Which is possible too but typically when a VP44 go funny there is codes with it. Hence why I asking for pin to pin ohm test between the ECM and VP44. If the wiring is all checking out then you got to get another clue that point or give reason for expensive parts. Sad part is some times you have to let the problem mature a bit more to show its ugly head. Cutting out is electrical so I would say monitor your Engine Load number for sharp drop off. 

 

One of the perks about Quadzilla it doesn't have to be in the vehicle to watch live data. I can have my truck warming up outside and leave my phone on my desk and monitor all system functions from the comfort of my desk. 

 

Once you get a live data tool of some sort we can look at the data you've got. Quadzilla would be the best because you could data log a trip with the cut out and it would show up in the data logs so you can see everything that happen the very moment the fuel drops out. 

 

Just an example from @Me78569 data repository...

 

GOT IT!!!  So there is reason to get the Quadzilla to help diagnose the problem!!!  Quite frankly this has been going on for months and months and I was actually hoping something would break and present the problem. 

 

You mentioned pin-pin ohm testing the ECM-VP44 wires.  Are there resistance values that we are looking for or just testing continuity?  I can do all that no prob.

 

Is there any kind of discount Quadzilla offers to subscribed forum members of mopar1973man if we buy directly from them?

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, MarkG said:

You mentioned pin-pin ohm testing the ECM-VP44 wires.  Are there resistance values that we are looking for or just testing continuity?  I can do all that no prob.

 

Ok here we go. From pin to pin (matching color wire) there should be a perfect 0 ohms from point to point. Failure is 5 ohms of greater. Then you leave both unhooked and do pin to ground. This check for wires that are shorting to ground possibly. This should turn up INFINITE ohms for all test but if there is any resistance then that is a fail because there should be no connection to ground if both ends of the wire is open. 

4 minutes ago, MarkG said:

Is there any kind of discount Quadzilla offers to subscribed forum members of mopar1973man if we buy directly from them?

 

We do have affiliate program with Quadzilla.

 

[MarkG]

24 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Ok here we go. From pin to pin (matching color wire) there should be a perfect 0 ohms from point to point. Failure is 5 ohms of greater. Then you leave both unhooked and do pin to ground. This check for wires that are shorting to ground possibly. This should turn up INFINITE ohms for all test but if there is any resistance then that is a fail because there should be no connection to ground if both ends of the wire is open. 

 

We do have affiliate program with Quadzilla.

 

 

Excellent!  Thank you.  I'm on it today and will report back.