Replacing head gasket

[Tex_usa]

Ok this is my first time posting here so if I'm missing something please let me know.

 

I'm relatively new to the diesel world but have read multiple posts on here as well as other sites about replacing a head gasket. 

 

My first question is do you need to resurface the block in addition to the head when doing a hg replacement on these 24v cummins? Also Is it common for the head to be cracked at 200k

 

This is my dd and I noticed that I am leaking oil right where the head and block meet. I cleaned it up and drove it some more and it definitely looks like it is leaking from the head gasket.

I would need to replace it during a weekend and want to make sure I will not have any surprises that I am not aware of.

I've looked at getting a new head with rings but I don't know what all I would need to do in addition to just a hg replacement.

 

Engine is from a 2002 2500, has S363/68/12 with 7x.010 Injectors and a quadzilla adrenaline.

[Mopar1973Man]

Just need a quality head gasket and at least ARP 425 studs. I'm pretty close but have a smaller turbo. (60/60/12).

 

The only thing you can do is pull the head and have the head checked for cracks then surfaced flat again. You might have the valves, guides and seals looked at.

 

Oh, welcome to the family. 

[Tex_usa]

Would I also need to resurface the short block? I see car people saying that I need to but I never see anyone with a cummins doing that.

[IBMobile]

10 minutes ago, Tex_usa said:

Would I also need to resurface the short block?

No   It is not necessary to deck the block. 

[Tex_usa]

Thank you for the input! With the current setup I have should I change my valve springs to 103s or anything else while I'm rebuilding the head? I don't know the hp on it currently as I just got my nv5600 biult up and then this happens.

[Mopar1973Man]

Still running stock valve springs on the Beast.

[dripley]

Unless you know a machine shop that will deck the head over the weekend, this not a quick job. When I did mine, getting the machine work was the longest part. 

[Dieselfuture]

There's a lot you can do, but at very least surface the head, pressure check, check guides for slop, I would recommend machining for newer top hat style valve seals to avoid possible seals blowing off the guides in the future and get destroyed by retainers. If the head if cracked you could possibly look at getting a 6.7 head on there. Studs would be a good idea. 

Check trunions too, what rockers privet on, they usually get galed up, you can get aftermarket ones or do like @dripley get used set from newer model that have oil grove in them, forgot what year 2012?

[Silverwolf2691]

Not this year but a few years ago I replaced my head gasket as well. Granted I didn't do the other upgrades like top hat seals or trunnions or springs, just injectors and head studs as upgrades.

 

my advice is doing a head gasket in a weekend is entirely doable, if you are not machining the head and you are replacing everything or have everything you need. Like others had said, the machine shop is the longest part to wait on. I think it took me and my best friend about 8 hours to take the engine completely down to head off, "ready" to go back on. But the biggest hinderances are all of the stuff you come across while you are in that far. My replacement of the head gasket took 3 weeks because of weather/no garage, machining time, and shipping time for some of the odds and ends. Also working a full time job and a then girlfriend that worked 3rd shift. (Only time I got to see her was between 6 and 10 pm on week days.)

 

As for the upgrades when having the head rebuilt, like @Dieselfuture said, there's a lot you can do, everything just comes down to money and how much are you willing to spend. What are your plans for the truck? That will help us be able to guide you with the parts needed.

 

18 hours ago, Tex_usa said:

I've looked at getting a new head with rings but I don't know what all I would need to do in addition to just a hg replacement.

 

Missed this the first time I read through, this would be another machining step in addition to the decking of head. Also what kind of "rings"? 

o-rings are machined into the head and compress on the head gasket fire ring as well. Good to about 70 psi.

fire rings take the place of the metal ring in the head gasket and depending on the shop are machined into the block or the head. Good to about 120 psi.

 

I'm assuming o-rings, but I've been wrong before. Unless you are planning on competition or going up to twins, I would pass on the rings.

 

If you are around the 60 psi mark, the 103 valve springs would probably be a worth while investment.

 

18 hours ago, Tex_usa said:

Engine is from a 2002 2500, has S363/68/12 with 7x.010 Injectors and a quadzilla adrenaline.

 

Is the engine not in a dodge?                

[Tex_usa]

Thank you so much for all the response! 

The engine and is in a dodge but was pulled from a 2002 (mine is a 2001)

Right now I'm pushing at max 40psi but my waste gate is set to that so I really don't know how much it will open up once I open it up more. 

The head I'm looking at is already machined and has orings (https://powerdrivendiesel.com/product/1998-2002-loaded-cummins-head-5-9l/) so all I would need is the gaskets and arp 2000s.

Talked to a shop this morning for getting my head resurfaced and they quoted me about $1500 for that and rings plus $1400 for labor to pull it and then replace the hg. At that price I could get the new head and do it myself or they said if I brought everything they would swap it out for $1400

Thank you for the advice about trunnions after some more searching I found people saying to swap these.

As for the springs I don't hit 3k rpm and don't see me pushing 60psi so I think I will stay stock.

Another question I had was do I need a specific gasket for orings? Or can I just use a cummins oem hg?

Also what all did yall have to do to your block when replacing the hg? Did you wet sand or just clean up with rags?

[Silverwolf2691]

Fair warning about doing it yourself, the head weighs right around 150lbs. Helps to have an engine hoist to help pick it off the motor and put it back on.

 

45 minutes ago, Tex_usa said:

Another question I had was do I need a specific gasket for orings? Or can I just use a cummins oem hg?

 

Only if you fire ring. O-ring heads compress the metal ring that's already there in the oem head gasket. Personally, head studs and springs should be enough for a daily driver with 7x010s and an s363. and the springs are only because you hinted at turning up the boost. An s363 should be able to clear 50+ psi with enough fuel. I know @Mopar1973Man is over 45-50? psi with the 60/60/12 he runs. 

 

Do you know the history of the block? if it was bored over, you need a different gasket for that bore. 

 

45 minutes ago, Tex_usa said:

Also what all did yall have to do to your block when replacing the hg? Did you wet sand or just clean up with rags?

  DO NOT wet sand the block. You will put water and metal and sand into areas you don't want them. The push rod holes (more or less) drain right onto the cam which drains right onto the crank throws. Once you get the head off, and dry the surface, you can go with a razor blade and scrape up anything remaining on the deck surface. I did follow that up with a brass wire wheel just the give the surface a bit of tooth for the gasket to bite into and to clean up the stuff the razor couldn't get. Just try to not push anything into the holes on the deck surface. For the head studs you will have to tap/thread chase the holes deeper so fair warning about that as well.    

Edited July 12, 2021 by Silverwolf2691

[Tex_usa]

I didn't even think about the block being bored over. I don't know the history so I guess I will have to get one hg larger as well? Would it cause any issue with getting the head oringed?

 

I had read that for the arp 2000s I did not need to do any tap as they are the same size as the stock head bolts? They said only the 14mm needed a tap. 

If you have info on this let me know as this was one of the reasons I wanted to get the arp 2000s.

One other thing I keep seeing is a thick and thin head gasket. 

What situation is each one needed for?

[Silverwolf2691]

1 hour ago, Tex_usa said:

I didn't even think about the block being bored over. I don't know the history so I guess I will have to get one hg larger as well? Would it cause any issue with getting the head oringed?

 

Not entirely sure on the o-ringing. I don't know if its a static diameter or if the o-ring diameter is based on the cylinder bore diameter, I don't think it is based on just sending the head out to places to get machined. 

 

Before I scare you into spending money you don't need to, Odds are highly likely that the engine hasn't been bored over. Just measure it before putting the gaskets on just in case. You are looking for Ø4.02". (Over bores are Ø4.04 (+.020) and Ø4.06(+.040)). Usually boring is either for more power or to repair damage, but in a Cummins its not done often because its not a big power adder and that type of damage (piston scoring) doesn't happen very often. I pulled my head at 180k and the crosshatching was still there, I think others with a lot more miles than me still had their cross hatching as well. 

 

1 hour ago, Tex_usa said:

I had read that for the arp 2000s I did not need to do any tap as they are the same size as the stock head bolts? They said only the 14mm needed a tap. 

If you have info on this let me know as this was one of the reasons I wanted to get the arp 2000s.

Its not a drill and tap. You run a bottoming tap to clear out any junk and run the threads down farther for a stud. You are not changing the size of the treads. 

       

 

Most taps are taper or plug, but with a stud you don't want to tighten against the tapered, uncut threads. You just want it to tighten on the full threads. (read this when I did my head gasket, I don't remember specifically why you don't want it to tighten on the uncut threads. I think it has something to do with torque accuracy).

 

I hope this is making sense and I'm not adding to the worry of the job.       

[Dieselfuture]

What he said ^^^

 

I used a shop vac when scraping the gasket off, that way everything was sucked up as soon as it was lose, it's a but of paint in the but to have a scraper in one hand and hose in the other bending over the engine bit it's a piece of mind. 

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

Head gasket job isn't too bad. This is my second time on Beast. About 2 hours to pull the head off. About 4 hours to adjust everything and assemble.

 

First time I need 18 valve guides and new valve seals. Cost $2,000... I had a member drop $200 on my bill! Thank you to that member!

Second time was much cheaper. Only $480 bucks for the machine work to resurface flat. 0.006 warp from end to end. Also new valve seals.

 

Head installed with ARP 425 studs.  

Edited July 13, 2021 by Mopar1973Man

[Doubletrouble]

 I have to ask, how difficult is it to get the head back in place and drop it down on the studs? Doesn't look like one would have much room with all the studs sticking up from the block. Mainly in the rear cowl area.

[Tex_usa]

Well I just ordered a new head with orings from DK motors out of GA. The owner was really nice and gave me a deal on the head. I will try and keep yall updated as I progress with this. One other thing has anyone used xotic head studs? I've seen a few guys using there 220,000 and holding 600hp no problem. I know I'm not going to be going over that so I thought I would try them.

@Doubletrouble

The way I've seen it done either you remove the wipers and somehow get them back there that way or I've seen some people use sockets as spacers with the rods in the head until they set it down.

[Silverwolf2691]

@Doubletrouble, studs go in after placing head on dowel pins. 

 

@Tex_usa, you have to remove the wiper cowl and a plug from the underside of the wiper area. It's the only way (I think) to get the push rods out. The studs if I remember right are short enough to come out without needing the plug removed. Just takes a bit of finding the right angles. And if you still have the insulation still its a bit harder because you loose about a 1/2" of clearance. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Correct. You must place the head then install the studs. The longer studs go on the exhaust side of the head. There is one that won't fit between the cowl and the head. I use a floor jack and lift the passenger side of the cab (not the frame) it will lift the body of the rubber mounts to gain that 1/4 inch needed to slip in the stud.

[dripley]

There is 2 dowels, IIRC, on the block for proper placement of the head. You will see them when you remove yours. Just get the head on those dowels and you are golden. Then insert the the studs or bolts.