Truck Not Running Right

[Timburrr]

Truck: 1999 2500 Quadcab NV 4500 300,000 miles.

 

What happened:  I was driving to work and everything was fine until I pulled up to a red light then my truck could barely hold a very unsteady idle.  CEL came on.  Pulled off road and had it towed to my work.  Pulled following codes:

 

P0251 Injection pump fuel valve feedback

P0252 Injection pump fuel valve stuck

P1688 VP44 Fuel Injection Pump Module Internmal membory or A/D error

P1693 Fault in companion module

P0122 TPS sensor 1 circuit low

P1682 charge system output low

 

Some of these were probably very old, I can't remember the last time I did a scan.    I should also mention I have a BD FlowMax lift pump with primary and secondary filter and two pressure gauges and it runs around 15-17 psi.  Cleared and rescanned and the injection pump codes and companion module came back.  The VP44 had been on my mind for a while.  It was at the very least 150-200K miles old, probably older.  Bought a new VP44 and installed it.  Truck fired up and ran fine with the following exceptions:

 

1. Idled at 864 RPM and it used to idle at 800RPM without fail.
2. When I turned on the A/C my Edge Insight used to register a small engine load but after new I.P. install showed 0% load with A/C on.
3. EGT was a little higher which I attributed to a possibly higher fueling rate with a nice new pump.
4. After the engine was hot, it would have a slightly unsteady idle with a seemingly random miss every 1-3 seconds

 

I talked to the diesel shop and he put a note on my file with the condition and we discussed that it could be a connector tube was unhappy have being disturbed from a long sleep where it was or possibly an injector.  Injectors also had at the very least 150-200K miles, probably much more.  Could be original for all I know.  I decided to install new injectors and new connecting tubes.  Before they came in, I didn't drive my truck for 7 or 8 days and when I started it up to go to work it was smoking and idling a little funny.  I figured maybe a dribbling injector let some fuel down and figured it would clean up.  Got a few hundred meters [yards] down the road and it seemed to lose about 75% of its power so I turned around and parked it.  Seemed to go back to normal power once or twice.  Since then the injectors came in and I installed them and its still got the same problem.

 

Right now my thoughts are the following:

1. Probably the injection pump.  I'm thinking probably bad pump but there is a small chance that the woodruff key could have marred a bit on install but I was very careful when lining up the shaft to the injection timing gear. Note: I was INCREDIBLY careful to keep everything clean.  Thoroughly cleaned the engine before working on it.  Changed the fuel filters and flushed the whole system up to the VP44 before connecting the fuel line to the VP44.  Flushed about half a gallon or more of fuel.
2. Possibly a crankshaft or camshaft sensor
3. Possibly (but hopefully not) ECM or maybe even PCM
4. Maybe APPS making it do weird stuff?
5. Head gasket?  Hopefully not.  Cooling system not bubbling, no coolant in oil or oil visible in coolant.

 

My plan of attack is:

1. Scan the truck with my boss's good scanner.  If there's codes then see where that leads.
2. If no codes MAYBE change the crankshaft and camshaft sensors.  They are a real bugger to get to and I don't like changing things for fun, but maybe?  What are the odds they are giving bad data and not throwing codes?  My understanding is if the VP44 and and the camshaft position sensor disagree you get a code.
3. Pull injection pump.  Assess woodruff key.  Maybe send it back.  Injection shop is going to contact the rebuilder.
4. Not sure how to diagnose ECM or PCM other than by process of elimination....

 

Any thoughts, as always, are very appreciated!

 

[wil440]

Have you cleared the previous codes that were logged ?  if not get them gone, nothing worse than trying to fault find old codes and eventually realising you have wasted days on nothing

 

If the truck has recent codes they won't clear or will come straight back anyway so your left with the "real" culprits

 

Once you have codes from right now either post them here or go to the codes pages on here and go through the diagnosis for the codes (I'd link them but I'm useless at finding stuff)

 

Me personally I wouldn't fit anything new until you get codes as thats just going to be a waste of time and money

 

Use a good scanner preferrably one that can read all live data for further diagnosis after you get codes, or if no codes live data is good, you should be able to see timing to see if the pump keyway is good, LData will also show all sensors and what they are saying

 

If the injection pump is bad get your money back and use @dieselautopower  but if you did get it from those guys you will be fine anyway

 

Here's another tip..... when you get a good scanner start again from scratch as if you have never seen the truck before in your life, the amount of times I see people following a certain diagnosis path based on what they did before is unreal, "before " didn't fix it so start again

 

 

[LorenS]

The sporadic nature leads me to first suspect electrical.

Have you checked hacked and cleaned ALL grounds under the hood?

 

Have you measured your alternator's A/C voltage? Need a digital voltmeter for this.

 

W-T modification is suggested if it hasn't already been done. It's in the Articles section.

 

I'm not familiar with what data an Edge Insight will give you. I use an OBDLink LX and it tells me a lot of live data handy for diagnostics.

[Timburrr]

Sorry guys was gone for the last couple days.  Okay, so I scanned using a Launch X-431 V+.  Came up with:

1. BCM-Enternal ROM Tests Failure (not sure what this would be on the Body Control Module but I would be surprised if this was related)
2. PCM - P0216 - Fuel Injection pump Timing Failure

Cleared codes (but the BCM code said cleared by still present). Ran truck and they came back. This is making me think the likely culprits are:

1. Bad injection pump (likely the electronic side)
2. Woodruff key is either incorrect or damaged.  I was very very careful lining up and installing the pump shaft to the timing gear so I would be absolutely shocked if the woodruff key got damaged.

I did take a video of some live data and it was funny because the engine RPM and the injection pump RPM took turns being incorrect and at around 500 RPM.

 

Alternator A/C ripple was measure at 0.041 VAC using a Fluke DVOM.

 

I will see if I can find the time to figure out how to post a video to youtube.  Right now I'm running on the hunch the pump is bad and I will have to replace it.  Does anybody have any other directions to go?  I will feel bad if I send a pump back and it turns out the problem is something else. (dealer has already got another one coming our way)

Edited August 15, 2022 by Timburrr

[wil440]

Here

https://mopar1973man.com/cummins/articles.html/24-valve-2nd-generation_50/51_engine/obdii-error-codes_94/

 

Look at P0216

[Great work!]

Check fuel pressure too or you could roast a VP.  DC volts is important too should not go over 15 or under 11 while running.

 

[Mopar1973Man]

4 ways to kill a VP44.

 

1. Fuel lubricity >460 HFRR will cause damage.

2. AC noise from the alternator will fry the PSG on the VP44.

3. Fuel filtration is poor it will cause damage 3um filters suggested. 

4. Fuel pressure below 14 PSI can cause damage no more than 20 PSI this can blow the front seal out.

[Timburrr]

21 hours ago, wil440 said:

Here

https://mopar1973man.com/cummins/articles.html/24-valve-2nd-generation_50/51_engine/obdii-error-codes_94/

 

Look at P0216

Thanks for posting this.  I looked through it and from what I can tell it can only be either the woodruff key got marred and the timing is physically off between the shaft and timing gear or that the pump is bad.  I have good lift pump pressure and everything else seems normal.

 

 

14 hours ago, Great work! said:

Check fuel pressure too or you could roast a VP.  DC volts is important too should not go over 15 or under 11 while running.

 

Lift pump pressure is always 14+ and never over 17.  DC volts has always been between 13.9 and 14.1.  I did the AC noise check and got 0.041 VAC.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

4 ways to kill a VP44.

 

1. Fuel lubricity >460 HFRR will cause damage.

2. AC noise from the alternator will fry the PSG on the VP44.

3. Fuel filtration is poor it will cause damage 3um filters suggested. 

4. Fuel pressure below 14 PSI can cause damage no more than 20 PSI this can blow the front seal out.

 

Thanks Michael.  I'm not an expert but I have done lots of homework on how to keep these trucks fairly happy.  First thing I did when I bought the truck was the two things they all need: a new heater core and a good lift pump.  I have a primary filter/water separator and a secondary filter that is the Donaldson and I think I remember it being 3 micron absolute.  I still run it through the stock filter to have the water in fuel sensor in play and my pressure gauge is on post filter side.  I put Stanadyne conditioner and ashless TCW3 2 stroke oil in with every tank.  AC noise was 0.041 VAC so that's within tolerance.  Lift pump reliably sends 14-17 psi depending on how much is flowing.

 

 

 

I think my next step is to pull the VP44 and inspect the woodruff key and if it looks good put a new pump in.  Does that sound about right?  Maybe I can swap out the overflow banjo first?

 

Thanks everyone for the help and insight!

Edited August 16, 2022 by Timburrr

[wil440]

I changed my overflow banjo while checking fuel pressure as I'm at around 6psi at idle and 20psi at 2k plus. I have a mechanical lift pump and changed it to try and get my Lower rpm  pressure up some.  Made no difference and in the end I checked flow back to tank and there is a huge amount going back even at idle so being as my fuel temperature never gets over 115f or so I gave up and left it as it.

They are not expensive, well here in the UK they aren't so changed it and see think I paid £11 collected from a local fuel shop

[Timburrr]

I have a spare I was just thinking that's the only other thing that was changed because the pump came with a new one.  Maybe its got an issue and is restricting fuel.

Another question: I didn't see much for available live data I guess due to the vintage of these trucks.  Injection pump RPM and a few other basic ones but not much in there along the lines of useful data for this issue. Does anybody have any experience with this?  It was interesting to see that 3 cylinder mode was something that could be turned on but I didn't mess around with it.

[Mopar1973Man]

First off don't mix cetane boosters like standyne and 2 cycle oil pick one. Should know that 2 cycle oil is a injector cleaner, cetane REDUCER. This adds more BTUs to the fuel. 

 

[Timburrr]

I've been doing a ton of reading mostly on here and also on some other forms and still haven't got anywhere.  I took my truck to a mechanic that is recommended here (former dodge dealership tech) and he took a look at it and thinks its fine.  Just from intimately knowing the truck I politely disagree for the following reasons:

 

• When driving, if I put the clutch in or put it in neutral the RPMs drop to the high 600s/low 700s before bouncing back up to around 800 RPM
• If exhaust brake is activated it will sometimes stall then engine when clutching in to downshift (has never done this before)
• When warm, idle seems to have a very slight irregular miss
• Shows around 11% load at idle, seems a little underpowered, doesn't build boost like it used to
• Lift pump pressure seems to randomly fluctuate a bit.  Can't find a common time, seems to be random.  will be nice and high and under the same conditions 10 minutes later wil be 3 or 4 psi lower.

Brief summary of events so you don't have to go back:

1. Injection pump failure (no lift pump issue: BD Flowmax lift pump supplies good pressure about 15 psi when driving, always put in TC-W3 oil)
2. Replace injection pump, fuel filters, etc. Truck seemed different right away (idled at around 875, random miss at idle when hot)
3. Truck starts to smoke a bit at idle so did new stock Bosch injectors and connector tubes - no change
4. Truck seems to lose 75% of power when I was going to drive to work - throws code P0216 Pump timing failure
5. Injection pump warrantied
6. Install new alternator just to eliminate AC noise (new alternator tested within acceptable mVAC)
7. Install new pump and cummins camshaft sensor because its cheap and accessible with pump off
8. Pump seems mostly okay but slightly off (symptoms listed above that I'm currently seeing)

I'm really starting to get demoralized by this.  I've put a ton of time and money into it.  I'm probably going to try to book it into a diesel specialty shop but they book over a month away and I can't afford to pay top dollar for things that I can do myself first or are very time consuming (however with three jobs, a wife, and three kids time management is killing me lately).

 

How does my current plan of attack sound?

1. I've had a Timbo APPS waiting to get installed for over a year, so put that in just to eliminate APPS as a possible issue
2. W-T Ground mod
3. Do the VP44 hotwire test.  If symptoms go away ECM is the suspect, If symptoms stay, fuel system is the suspect (injectors, injector lines, injection pump)
4. Pull ECM connector, inspect for corrosion, check for continuity, maybe load test wires too?  Time consuming 
5. At this point if nothing conclusive maybe send truck into diesel specialty shop?

Unfortunately I will have a lot of questions along the way and I will really really appreciate help because this is out of my areas of knowledge (but I am putting a lot of time and effort into learning this stuff).  I'm having troubles simply finding information to reference.  Quickserve seemed to offer nothing on any 5.9 ISB engine number I put in (maybe a Dodge exclusivity agreement? But could be the license we had at school). In mid-November I go back to school for 6 weeks so my time and money problems will get tougher for a while.

 

Thanks for all the input!

[wil440]

A while back you posted that you had VP codes coming back after clearing them and then driving the truck,  is this still happening??

If you still have P0216 coming back after clearing there's your problem,  follow the process for P0216 diagnosis 

[Timburrr]

44 minutes ago, wil440 said:

A while back you posted that you had VP codes coming back after clearing them and then driving the truck,  is this still happening??

If you still have P0216 coming back after clearing there's your problem,  follow the process for P0216 diagnosis 

No codes now (yet? ). The code was from the first replacement pump.  But it didn't throw a code immediately.

 

I should also say that the first replacement pump went somewhere around 200 miles from install to when it had obviously failed. 

[Great work!]

Is all the stickers and bar code look new or was stuff reused on the warranted pump?

 

Do the WT mod.

 

A mal adjusted or worn APPS can cause it to go to limp mode. That could be your power reduction and idle issue. The TPS will benefit greatly from the WT mod.

 

Hot wire mode is not definitive, it only gives you a warm fuzzy that the VP can inject with some generic fuel and timing values.

 

Some have reported intermittent MAP sensor issues that were not severe enough to cause a code.

[LorenS]

On 9/30/2022 at 2:30 PM, Timburrr said:

• I've had a Timbo APPS waiting to get installed for over a year, so put that in just to eliminate APPS as a possible issue
• W-T Ground mod

Since this will cost you about $5 or less and 2-3 hours, absolutely yes do these things!

[Mopar1973Man]

Agreed...

[Doubletrouble]

 Is there a possibility that you ordered or maybe they sent you a H.O. pump and your STD engine don't like it? Or vice-versa?

 Definitely get the w-t mod done also. That will help both now and long down the road.

 Are you 100% positive when the injection pump was installed the timing marks were aligned correctly? 

 To make these engines run you need compression (for ignition of fuel) fuel pressure and proper timing for basic function.

 When you flushed the fuel system did you notice and air bubbles? A leak on the suction side of things can introduce air to the fuel.

[Mopar1973Man]

13 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

Are you 100% positive when the injection pump was installed the timing marks were aligned correctly? 

Good point I've seen people screw up and crush the key thinking they had it lined up. This offset might cause issues and run poorly. 

 

 

[Timburrr]

On 9/30/2022 at 3:26 PM, Great work! said:

Is all the stickers and bar code look new or was stuff reused on the warranted pump?

 

Do the WT mod.

 

A mal adjusted or worn APPS can cause it to go to limp mode. That could be your power reduction and idle issue. The TPS will benefit greatly from the WT mod.

 

Hot wire mode is not definitive, it only gives you a warm fuzzy that the VP can inject with some generic fuel and timing values.

 

Some have reported intermittent MAP sensor issues that were not severe enough to cause a code.

I read somewhere about MAP sensor issues (and also crank position sensor) and might do those if other things don't make changes. Thanks. 

 

 

On 10/3/2022 at 8:41 PM, LorenS said:

Since this will cost you about $5 or less and 2-3 hours, absolutely yes do these things!

As soon as I have time going to do these. 

 

 

On 10/4/2022 at 5:54 PM, Doubletrouble said:

 Is there a possibility that you ordered or maybe they sent you a H.O. pump and your STD engine don't like it? Or vice-versa?

 Definitely get the w-t mod done also. That will help both now and long down the road.

 Are you 100% positive when the injection pump was installed the timing marks were aligned correctly? 

 To make these engines run you need compression (for ignition of fuel) fuel pressure and proper timing for basic function.

 When you flushed the fuel system did you notice and air bubbles? A leak on the suction side of things can introduce air to the fuel.

I've thought about this and asked the guy at the injection shop. Sounds like the place is on the ball. I took pics of my original pump numbers and the replacements if there's a way to check them.

 

 

On 10/5/2022 at 7:18 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

Good point I've seen people screw up and crush the key thinking they had it lined up. This offset might cause issues and run poorly. 

 

 

I was incredibly careful with lining it up. It was the first thing I checked on the replacement pump that failed. Key was totally fine. Even though it's super hard metal I also checked the keyway in the gear and it was also good.

 

Thanks for all the help!