No cold start problem.....help

[W-T]

Yeah...John @Tractorman brought a few aspects to my attention that need clarification to this issue for @Doubletrouble

The run-time for the lift pump in a freeze-up situation is dependent on how hard frozen is it? Also, where is the frozen obstruction or resistance?

My error in stating "Let the Raptor Run" is not fully correct and needs to be tempered in application.

 

BTW...prior to applying a new lift pump installation on my vehicle, I would use this "TEST lead, force run" procedure when I would change the fuel filter in the Stock Filter canister.

This simple maintenance procedure always evacuates the fuel within the canister as you remove the filter element. Once done, I'd reapply the cap and tighten to prevent leaks.

Knowing, I had air in the system, I elected to "force run" my lift pump to purge the system prior to starting the engine.

 

This procedure actually trained my "ear" as to what was occurring within the circulatory system by the way it sounded as it hydraulically chased the air from the system. It is a subtle but, very profound audio report and you need to experience this to gain the auditory perception of its action. It is also an advantage to have a working fuel pressure gauge to visually monitor "what you hear" as the hydraulic system stabilizes. Viewing the gauge as you "force run" the lift pump you'll see some wild excursions as the system purges the large volume of air and begins to become a "pure air free" liquid environment. It requires "run time" to actually hear the system clean up...as the lift pump continues to run, you will hear the finalization of complete purge and your system will have a certain sound that is very particular.... it sings it's own song. 

 

On initial activation of the lift pump in this "forced run TEST" the sound is raucous and glancing at your fuel pressure gauge instantaneously will be alarming as the needle will slam itself violently as the purge initially is vacated then, you will begin to hear stabilization but, additional run time is still required as the fuel pushes the last remaining air pockets from the system. The entire lift pump circulatory system will adopt it's own sound and remain at that same sound once fully burped.

 

This "TEST force run" of the lift pump with the engine NOT running is an enlightening experience and one should know the "song" of your system. Each system has a different song and depends on what devices are selected in the assembly. I know that Dan @IBMobile made reference to force running a lift pump in a thread sometime back, so this TEST procedure is not new.

 

Flow through is important, even if its just a dribble of fuel indicating liquid fuel is present within the vane cavity of the transfer pump. My blanket statement to @Doubletroubleto "Let the Raptor Run" in this "TEST force run" is in error! The examples @Tractorman posted regarding "waxing" in cold conditions is a major consideration where NO flow through is occurring. In a common sense aspect, if the system is gelled-up at a particular location within the system, inadvertently placing your lift pump into a "forced TEST run condition" for an extended period of time could damage the lift pump seals following the love-joy coupling at the impeller disk. 

 

I ask forgiveness in following verbal dissertation...if you know the "song" your system sings when all is correctly flowing, you will know when the song goes wrong.

 

The lift pump in a harsh low temperature situation maybe looking into a "dead headed" no flow pathway, if there is just a small fraction of liquid fuel within the cavity of the pump, it will be in cavitation and extended run periods could cause damage. 

 

With this cautionary knowledge one would call on a reasonable consideration when placing the transfer pump into extended forced run operation. In my experience, I'd be listening for the song.

 

Knowing of the cold storm situation in the eastern states this winter, there is most likely, additional cold-start event errors forthcoming.

I'm originally from Butte, Montana and I've seen -60 F however; my 2nd Gen has only seen -20 F and I had no errors.

 

Humble Respect,

W-T

 

   

 

 

 

       

Edited December 26, 2022 by W-T
grammer

[wil440]

On most of the Cat machines I work on  (sorry to keep going back to Cat but it's pretty much all I work on) the filter housing has a small electric bleed pump incorperated  into the housing, it is not a LP pump as they have a mechanical fuel transfer pump, the electric pump is just for bleeding and has a manual on/off switch that can only be used with the engine and ignition switch off, as @W-T says the systems tells you when it's bled as air going through the fuel presure regulator  valve makes a very distinct noise and is totally different to the fully bled noise.

Also you can hear the air bubbling away in the fuel tank as that's where it will end up via the fuel return line, and once the electric bleed pump is bled it quietens down but the bubbling in the fuel tank will carry on until there is no air in the system at all, I cannot test this bubbling on a ram as I have a mechanical lift pump so not sure oif you can hear it 

[JAG1]

When changing my factory filter I simply shut off both ball shut off valves that are on each side of the big primary filter and lift pump down low on the frame this will prevent fuel from draining back into the tank and keep air from entering the system when the filter cap is removed.

 

When changing the primary filter or the lift pump down low on the frame, both ball valves are shut to help not lose any degree of priming. After the big filter is changed I leave the front ball valve shut and open the rear valve, I then open the bleed vent bolt at the top of the big filter. It vents the air and fills fuel by gravity, as long as the fuel tank is full it will fill to the top, I wait till it weeps a little and finally I shut the bleed bolt and then open the front ball valve. For insurance I run the lift pump a few times by bumping the starter and she fires up every time. But this is only how I keep and hold prime when changing filters or lift pump, not dealing with clouded up frozen fuel in cold weather.

 

I also have fuel pressure ports on the fuel lines to both trucks, up near the highest level of fuel lines near the VP, these can also be used as air bleed ports and have helped in the past. They each have brass screw caps with rubber 'O' rings.

Edited December 26, 2022 by JAG1

[Doubletrouble]

 All very good information to take into consideration both when changing filters and when dealing with a freeze issue.

 I will keep this info stored away in my memory banks (sometimes they freeze to) for future reference. 

 In hind sight, and I REALLY hate to admit to this but, this freeze up was mainly my fault.

 A while back I had some fuel delivered to the house, I have a tank in the driveway with a hand pump. We usually use it for tractors but with the fuel prices lately I was able to buy in bulk with a discount so I purchased 180 gallons at about $.75 below most fuel stations.

 My stupidity comes in like this, the fuel was delivered over 6 weeks ago when it was still fairly warm. My mistake was that I neglected to add any cold weather additives to the tank. 

 I didn't even think about it until the truck first started and then died shortly after.

 This has now been my first freeze up ever after driving commercial vehicles (all diesel) for the past 27 years. I feel like a complete idiot.

 Rest assured I have learned a valuable lesson from this and it will NEVER happen again.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Doubletrouble

[Tractorman]

@Doubletrouble, I am glad to hear that your gelling problem has been resolved.  I suspected that it may clear itself when you said that the engine ran for thirty seconds and then died with zero fuel pressure.  Your subsequent attempts  to keep the engine running likely brought treated fuel to the fuel filter and then to the VP44.

 

@W-Tand I were replying to an earlier post at nearly the same time.  After reading his post, I did not post my reply, but rather sent it to him just from sheer respect for his knowledge about many things.  He readily suggested that I post the reply anyway.  So, here it is, albeit a bit late.

 

 

On 12/25/2022 at 8:57 AM, W-T said:

You should hear the Raptor run immediately when you trigger the isolation relay. LET IT RUN !

 

NOW, go open your fuel filler door, remove the fuel cap and put your ear to the hole at the filler-neck and listen. Once you hear fuel being returned to the tank you should see fuel pressure.

 

I personally have not done what you have suggested, but I question the ability to hear the fuel returning into the fuel tank.  The volume of fuel returning to the tank is very limited because the VP44 internal vane pump is not rotating.  So, the lift pump forces internal leakage around the vanes of the internal vane pump at a greatly reduced volume.  That fuel works its way to the tiny orifice in the overflow valve and returns to tank.  If the fuel basket is still stock, that return fuel enters the tank below fuel level. 

 

With the reduced fuel flow and with fuel returning to the tank below fuel level makes me think that it would be very difficult to hear the return fuel - assuming the fuel system has a stock fuel basket.  I certainly can be wrong about this,

 

The photo below shows the reduced volume of fuel returning to the tank with engine off and lift pump running.

 

 

So, I am curious to know if you have done that procedure with your truck and were you able to hear the fuel returning into the fuel tank?  Also, does your truck still use the OEM fuel basket with accompanied fuel return flow?

 

I was also going to add that I thought it may be wiser to use the lift pump circuit in its normal operation (for 20 seconds at a time) because it was unknown where the fuel blockage / restrictions was located.  If it was in the in-tank suction screen (assuming OEM fuel basket), then prolonged use of the lift pump with the blockage / restriction could possibly harm the lift pump.  If the blockage / restrictions was in the fuel filter mounted on the engine (downstream), then I would not be concerned for lift pump running continuously.

 

Once the OP said that his engine ran for about 30 seconds and then lost fuel pressure and died, I was fairly certain that his engine may run after many attempts of priming  and starting, just because the treated fuel in the tank was slowly making its way to the injection pump. 

 

- John

 

22 minutes ago, Doubletrouble said:

 In hind sight, and I REALLY hate to admit to this but, this freeze up was mainly my fault.

 

This response clearly adds value to this thread, because now we know for sure there was a gelling problem and we know for sure the cause of the gelling problem.  Your last post (the most important one) is very informative and shows all of us how we can sometimes create our own problems.  Thank you!

 

- John

[Doubletrouble]

1 hour ago, Tractorman said:

This response clearly adds value to this thread, because now we know for sure there was a gelling problem and we know for sure the cause of the gelling problem.  Your last post (the most important one) is very informative and shows all of us how we can sometimes create our own problems.  Thank you!

 

- John

 I certainly did create my own problem this time. Like stated before, I feel like a complete idiot. This will not stop me from turning this into a learning experience. 

 Diesel engines are astounding to me and real power houses when properly cared for but they don't like the cold. Fuel being to cold and / or gelling is a problem, even intake air Temps being to low have proven to have some negative effects on the diesel engine. I can even notice the way the engine runs better once she is completely warmed up and the fuel has warmed as well. 

 I have learned many things on this site and with my own experiences owning my Dodge / Cummins. This was another lesson to be learned.......don't forget to treat untreated fuel if the tempeture suddenly drops! 

 On a side note, my leg hurts now from kicking myself  

[JAG1]

I was on a long distance run last February where my truck sat all nite for 9/10 hrs in 15 degree weather. All it had was a heavy dosage of TCW3 but, with my clear bowl filter bottom I was concerned about it's exposure. At start up in the morning I only experienced a slight hesitation when raising the rpms to help with the warm up that quickly went away. I now realize how important it might be next time to carry not only a generator but, a heat gun in the tool bag as well.

 

The camper and it's two batteries kept us warm all nite into the morning.

 

A bit of info that may interest you... the EV's are not charging in this cold weather. Heard that on the news so it might be Fake!

Edited December 26, 2022 by JAG1

[Doubletrouble]

1 hour ago, JAG1 said:

 

A bit of info that may interest you... the EV's are not charging in this cold weather. Heard that on the news so it might be Fake

 I also saw this on tiktok. Makes sense, the batteries get to cold to take a charge. Apparently once plugged into the charging station the will have to go through a warm up cycle to get the battery warm enough to charge which ultimately add much more time to the charging process if I understand it correctly. The whole time your car has no heat going so if there is no place warm for the driver to go they sit in the car and freeze.

[IBMobile]

1 hour ago, Doubletrouble said:

The whole time your car has no heat going so if there is no place warm for the driver to go they sit in the car and freeze.

This is part of the sacrifice they must be willing to make to the environmental Goddess Gaia, the preventer of global warming.

[JAG1]

Then you have to earn more money for a hotel room while it charges otherwise your standing there for hours watching all the diesel guys go by that you passed earlier in town.

 

Used car prices for internal combustion engines are going to go thru the roof. 2nd gen truck in nice shape $100,000 bucks

Edited December 27, 2022 by JAG1

[Doubletrouble]

1 hour ago, JAG1 said:

Used car prices for internal combustion engines are going to go thru the roof. 2nd gen truck in nice shape $100,000 bucks

 Heck, they're a 1/4 of the way there now in some places. Lol

 I've been offered 12k for mine the way it sets which is 4k more than I paid. I won't sell, I love the truck.

[JAG1]

4 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

 Heck, they're a 1/4 of the way there now in some places. Lol

 I've been offered 12k for mine the way it sets which is 4k more than I paid. I won't sell, I love the truck.

I am thankful each day I drive either of my 2nd gens. I love those trucks, they are a real nice tool that you take good care of.

[wil440]

5 hours ago, JAG1 said:

Then you have to earn more money for a hotel room while it charges otherwise your standing there for hours watching all the diesel guys go by that you passed earlier in town.

 

Used car prices for internal combustion engines are going to go thru the roof. 2nd gen truck in nice shape $100,000 bucks

Highly possible...... but here in the UK cities are now charging a congestion charge per DAY, this charge depends on a vehicles emmissions with newer cars think it could be Euro 6 spec paying nothing my truck would pay the full charge, think London is £12  but I could be wrong, this applies even if you live withing the zones so some people are charged £12 per day everyday because they are inside the zone and drive an older car, all done automatically.

It is a tax raising scam  by the local government to raise money under the disguise of lowering C02

Doesn't apply to me though as I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than go to any UK city especially London

But the thing is it will only get worse with higher charges and higher fuel taxes to tax the older vehicles off of the roads

[Doubletrouble]

 And to add to what @wil440 said, the tax money they raise there and here in the U.S most likely doesn't even go towards any sort of environmental cause. At least a good part of it won't. It's used to line pockets of a select few. 

 Do I believe that global warming is an issue? Yes, but not to the degree they say it is. 

[Tractorman]

8 hours ago, wil440 said:

I'd rather stick pins in my eyes

 

Can you imagine an upside down picture of @wil440with pins in his eyes!?

 

Here is something that will help build trust in the government.  Not.   In the mid '90's, my wife and I moved from Colorado to about 20 miles east of  Redding, California.  We built a house there on a 3.5 acre lot.  At the time we had a 1985 Subaru (49 states emissions - so not California) and my 1991 Ford F150 4x4 powered by a Cummins 4BTA 4 cyl diesel engine. 

 

I was proactive in finding out what it would take to pass emissions on my truck even though the Cummins engine was emissioned for 50 states, so that includes California.   Because I knew the test station would be stumped when they opened the hood on the truck, I made an appointment with the California Air Resource Board (CARB) and brought my truck to their testing station.

 

The fellow looks under the hood for a long time.  Finally, I asked if I could help with any questions he may have.  He said, "No questions, I was just looking at your installation of the Cummins.  We don't test diesel engines in California, but, there is a Smog Impact Fee."  I said ok, how much.  He said, "$400."  What!!??

 

So, when it came time to Smog test the Subaru, the fee was around $350 - yup, Smog Impact Fee because it was only a 49 state emission engine.

 

A few years go by.  We have moved to Oregon in 1999.  A few months later I get a phone call from the real estate guy that sold us our property in California - he says California is refunding millions of dollars collected for Smog Impact Fees.  He told us how to file.  It turns out that the money collected by CARB was deposited into the General Fund for years and used for many things that were not air quality related.  We were refunded about $750.

 

By the way, the real estate guy bought my truck with the Cummins.

 

- John

 

 

[wil440]

12 minutes ago, Tractorman said:

Can you imagine an upside down picture of @wil440with pins in his eyes!?

Still better than a visit to Londistan 

[Mopar1973Man]

I've seen several cases where people got fuel from a farm tank or a drag tank locally and had water in the fuel. I've seen cases where the water has plugged draw straw and locked up the a fuel pump with ice in the pump housing. If your running a FASS or AirDog a heat gun will heat it up and thaw it out. If it was locked up check the relay and fuse. Stock fuel pumps well that might get expensive. It will most likely burn the ECM fuel pump circuit up being there is no fuse to keep it from happening. The tracer on the Mylar circuit board will burn and damage the ECM.