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AH64ID

Little experiment with BLACK oil....

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As you may or may not know the oil on 04.5-07 5.9's is BLACK as soon as you change it. I have modified my motor to remove nearly everything that contributed to the BLACK oil, but it still is BLACK as soon as I change it. I am currently 2/3 of the way thru an experiment. This past weekend I disconnected my bypass, and with compressed air I blew it out to help drain it. I then added a 1/2 bottle of Amsoil Engine Flush to the oil, and idled it for 15 minutes. I then drained the hot oil immediately. I put a CHEAP oil filter on, and filled it with Delo (BLACK 2 minutes after filling it). I then drove it about 6 miles to get hot (block was still warm from the first run and I kept it plugged in) and added a full bottle of Amsoil Engine Flush and idled it for 15 minutes, and drained the hot oil. I then filled it with Delo again, and a Wix 57620 (OEM equivalent), not quite as cheap as the 1st filter but still an inexpensive filter. Here is where the surprise came, I started it for 2 minutes and shut it off to check the oil. It's still black, but I can still read the letters and see the cross-hatch thru the oil. I have NEVER seen oil that clean on a 04.5-07 HPCR, and am still amazed. I am going to keep this fill in it for about a week and then dump it, fill it with my normal Amsoil and hook the bypass back up... well see how long it stays "clean" for. I have about 120 miles on the Delo now, and it's still as clean as it was on the first day.. maybe even a hair cleaner. My theory is that there is enough residual oil in the system that doesn't drain it contaminates the oil QUICK. Between the flushes and rapid oil changes I hopefully have cleaned the motor of the residual BLACK oil and will have better looking oil for a while. If it doesn't work, oh well I'll at least know that there is nothing that can be done.

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AH, Im assuming the egr is what turns your oil so fast? Have you ever cleaned your egr valve? Dont know alot about them thats why Im asking.My motorhead cousin has always done a trick similar to what your doing, with gas engines (he doesnt own a diesel). Once a year, at an oil change, he will buy a cheap oil filter along with cheap oil, change his oil with the cheap stuff and substitute a quart of oil for a quart of ATF. He will start the engine, and let it idle for 15 to 20 minutes or until it reaches operating temps. Then he drains and refills with a quality oil and filter. The first time this is done to a vehicle it may make your new oil look black right away, this is the sludge deposits coming loose. And may need done again. As we all know, ATF is an excellent detergent. Ever notice when you work on your trans how clean your hands are when your done? It does the same thing to the inside of an engine. My cousin drives high mileage vehicles, you can pull the dipstick on his engine and it looks cleaner than most new vehicles. Even at the 4 to 5k mile mark, it still looks pretty darn good.

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5.9's don't have EGR's. The way that the 04.5-07's met emissions without an EGR was thru 4 major things. 1) Timing, by retarding the timing the cylinder pressure was lowered and NOx production was reduced. This leads to a very late combustion, which puts more soot on the cylinder walls. The late (3rd) event adds to this. 2) Cam, the cam profile has a decent intake and a short exhaust. The exhaust opens/closes early, thus keeping more of the exhaust in the cylinder. Like an in-cylinder EGR. 3) Turbo, the turbo has a decent compressor with a small turbine and turbine housing. This creates a lot of back-pressure, which also helps keep exhaust in the cylinder. It's not uncommon to see nearly 2x the back-pressure as boost when towing up a grade.4) Piston design, the pistons are a non-reentrant design that somehow helped reduce emissions. On my truck I have advanced the timing to where it should be, thus keeping more of the combustion in the combustion chamber and away from the cylinder walls. I have also changed the cam to a more free-flowing model that has increased airflow, spool, and decreased resistance and EGT's. Lastly I replaced the OEM turbo with a model that runs less back-pressure than boost 99% of the time, which has improved airflow and reduced inlet and exhaust gas temps. Only the pistons are left from the OEM in-cylinder EGR. I run a quality synthetic oil, that is a full detergent oil with a 15um full flow and a 2um bypass and the flush still brings out some nasty crap!

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:doh: i dont know why I thought you had a 6.7, one look at your sig would tell me otherwise!Sounds like youve got a pretty good grip on your engine, Id be interested to see what you find out with your experiment.My 98.5 now has 90k miles on it and the oil still has a nice color to it when I change my oil at 8k mile intervals. This is the first diesel Ive seen that doesnt turn black the first week after an oil change.

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I suppose I'm lucky that I was born with a "light" foot!!!! That said; my last fill up yesterday, got me 20.0mpg's spot on!!! My mods are in my signature. My odometer and speedometer were checked on my NoDak hunting trip last month............almost "spot on" with Smarty!!!!!!!! But that's old news!!!I still believe that most of mileage is due to the "man behind the wheel"!!!!!Mike and I get really, really good mileage on our trucks...............different generations also..................how can that be???????????IMNTBHO, it's due to the "man behind the wheel"!!!! How can it be anything other???!!!

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Keep us up to date on your experiment. I changed the oil in my 01 two days ago and it still looks like it came out of the bottle :thumb1:I know they say it dont matter but I like clean oil, I still think the 04's and up will have sluge in them if you dont take extra care of them.My 05 is black before it's to the full mark and I aint even started it yet :duh: She just hit 50k the other day.

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I suppose I'm lucky that I was born with a "light" foot!!!!

That said; my last fill up yesterday, got me 20.0mpg's spot on!!! My mods are in my signature. My odometer and speedometer were checked on my NoDak hunting trip last month............almost "spot on" with Smarty!!!!!!!! But that's old news!!!

I still believe that most of mileage is due to the "man behind the wheel"!!!!!

Mike and I get really, really good mileage on our trucks...............different generations also..................how can that be???????????

IMNTBHO, it's due to the "man behind the wheel"!!!! How can it be anything other???!!!

If I lived in the flat land like you do I could get that mileage pretty easily I am sure. I got 19.2 the other day on a 70-80mph run thru rolling hills. Your truck does pretty darn good thou! I think the rokkteh helps your cruise mileage, but I would be scared towing on it, based on what I have seen with UDC I think you could easily be running too much timing at load.

How's your oil look?

Mike has a 2nd gen, and that's where his mileage comes from.

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My 05 is black before it's to the full mark and I aint even started it yet :duh: She just hit 50k the other day.

Isn't it frustrating!

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If I lived in the flat land like you do I could get that mileage pretty easily I am sure. I got 19.2 the other day on a 70-80mph run thru rolling hills. Your truck does pretty darn good thou! I think the rokkteh helps your cruise mileage, but I would be scared towing on it, based on what I have seen with UDC I think you could easily be running too much timing at load.

How's your oil look?

Mike has a 2nd gen, and that's where his mileage comes from.

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Isn't it frustrating!

Johnny,

My oil looks fine. Just did a "complete" change out before my NoDak trip, and the oil "looked" and "felt" fine!!!!!! Yeah, it was black as our president, but it was still more than sound..................unlike his policies!!!!!!!!!

In the lakes region of northern Illinois that I live in.................it's not really flat.....like central Illannoys. A lot of up and down here......at least where I live anyhow!!!!!

So don't go throwing me in with the "LibTards" that voted like I didn't!!!:banghead::banghead::smart:

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I'll bet your oil isn't as black as you may think! I don't think it takes much 'color' to turn it seemingly opaque.Look at a nasty muddy river or pond.... and dip some of that into a small clear glass... hold it up to the light and voila' (ok, it wont be Perrier bottled quality)I know when I am a little late changing oil on some of my tractors, that it will be nasty looking milliseconds after firing up. But when you take that sample and smear it out thin on something white... (not momma's bath towel) lol, it's not as bad as we think! the familiar greenish yellow comes through.

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I'll bet your oil isn't as black as you may think! I don't think it takes much 'color' to turn it seemingly opaque. Look at a nasty muddy river or pond.... and dip some of that into a small clear glass... hold it up to the light and voila' (ok, it wont be Perrier bottled quality) I know when I am a little late changing oil on some of my tractors, that it will be nasty looking milliseconds after firing up. But when you take that sample and smear it out thin on something white... (not momma's bath towel) lol, it's not as bad as we think! the familiar greenish yellow comes through.

Are you a "bottled water" salesman by chance??!!!:duh::stuned:

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My truck is just like the 3rd gens now. Change the oil and it black in the first start. I gave up worrying about the color of the oil. As long as the debris levels are low enough for the filters to handle everything should be good. But still interested in what happens in your study...

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I read and read all these threads and just have to laugh at the poor mileage complaints in the mountain country. I have had 5 Rams and 2 have been cummins, I have had all 5 on road trips through the mountains several times and I can say that over the average of 5 rams 3 Gassers 95 1/2 ton 360 mag, 99 2500 LBQC 4x4 V10, 2010 hemi, and 2 Cummins I will 100% always get 3-4 mpg more running through the mountains than I do in my home country with long grade rolling hills and wind.

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As far as the oil goes My 02 would always stay fairly clean up to around 5K miles on the oil before one couldn't see through it on the dipstick.

I tried to do the same thing as AH is doing here on my 05 a few years ago and I taught myself some new words when I went to refill with new Amsoil 15w-40 after doing a dyno oil flush and brain farted it out and forgot to put the drain plug back in. Didn't realize it until I had about 2 gallons poured into it already and heard it running out.:banghead::banghead::mad:.

I just don't worry anymore.

I have seen oil come out of gasser engines over the years that make our 3rd gen oil look like new.:stuned:

At a previous job we had a service contract with Ameripride linen company to do all the service work on their rigs, They were all GM chassis with V8 gassers both big and small blocks, we used Conoco 15-40 oil and they ran it up to 10K miles on all oil changes, We only replaced one engine with low to them mileage of 250K miles andd that was due to a waterpump leak ands over heated it. They had a lot of 300-400K mileage gassers that were running strong with 15-40 Conoco dyno oils since new. That made a statement to us all of the quality of Conoco lubes and capability of things that most sweat about going a mile over 3k miles on a conventional thinking oil change.

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I read and read all these threads and just have to laugh at the poor mileage complaints in the mountain country. I have had 5 Rams and 2 have been cummins, I have had all 5 on road trips through the mountains several times and I can say that over the average of 5 rams 3 Gassers 95 1/2 ton 360 mag, 99 2500 LBQC 4x4 V10, 2010 hemi, and 2 Cummins I will 100% always get 3-4 mpg more running through the mountains than I do in my home country with long grade rolling hills and wind.

My mileage isn't poor in the mountains, but it's nothing like it is in flat land. I see the opposite. I would get low teens in the flats if your 3-4 mpg difference were true.

Just recently I went from Kuna to Challis at 9K GVW and got 17. Pretty good considering I started at 3K, ended at 5K, and had 3 grades of 5-7%, one of which is about 10 miles long and takes 30 miles to drop 1000 feet after. 2 weeks later I did Challis - Kuna - Challis and got 19.3. So my mountain mileage isn't bad. We get plenty of wind here too, and yes that can cut the mileage in a heartbeat.

A few years ago, pre cam/turbo, I spent 6 weeks in Tuscon and never dipped below 18. That's the best consistent mileage I have ever gotten, but it's flat and warm (was Jan-Feb so not hot). I wasn't even being too nice to it on acceleration, but the low requirement for power when just crusing at 70-80 made up for it and then some. I bet I would be in the 19-20 range with how the truck is setup now, maybe even break that 20 number.

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Didn't realize it until I had about 2 gallons poured into it already and heard it running out.:banghead::banghead::mad:.

Expensive oops!! But you gave the oil pan a nice flush!

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At a previous job we had a service contract with Ameripride linen company to do all the service work on their rigs, They were all GM chassis with V8 gassers both big and small blocks, we used Conoco 15-40 oil and they ran it up to 10K miles on all oil changes, We only replaced one engine with low to them mileage of 250K miles andd that was due to a waterpump leak ands over heated it. They had a lot of 300-400K mileage gassers that were running strong with 15-40 Conoco dyno oils since new. That made a statement to us all of the quality of Conoco lubes and capability of things that most sweat about going a mile over 3k miles on a conventional thinking oil change.

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Have you tried a Baldwin BD7317, Fleetguard LF9028 or a Carrier 30-00463-00? I use the Baldwin BD7317. It keeps the oil clean much longer than the standard LF3894 or Baldwin BT7349 but after several 100 miles it starts to turn black and eventually really black.

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Have you tried a Baldwin BD7317, Fleetguard LF9028 or a Carrier 30-00463-00? I use the Baldwin BD7317. It keeps the oil clean much longer than the standard LF3894 or Baldwin BT7349 but after several 100 miles it starts to turn black and eventually really black.

I haven't, I run a 15um full flow and a 2um bypass, so I have better filtering than the venturi filters. I haven't looked at the specs on the Carrier, but I have on the other 2 and the Fleetguard is the filter to run. I don't recall off hand the exact specs, but it was much better than the Baldwin.

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Alright, so today I set out to dump the Delo and get back to my normal Amsoil routine. I put about 143 miles on the oil. It was back to being black, but not normal black and still thinner than new oil is right as you fill it.

I started the morning out by going for a drive to get things hot. Once the coolant/oil were up to temp I pulled into the garage to let it drain.

While it was draining I pulled the valve cover and mopped the dirty oil out of the rockers. I had some extra Delo so I poured the clean oil over the valve train and let it fall over the cam and out the drain. I then plugged the pan and poured the rest of the Delo over the valvetrain. I started the motor with about 3qts in the pan and ran it for about 10 seconds (yes I was showing about 10 psi). This was to push the clean oil into the pump/cooler and push the last of the dirty oil out so it would drain. I reopened the drain in the pan. I re-mopped the rockers again, and used a kids medicine syringe and sucked oil out of the freeze plugs, there are about 8 or 9 of them and each held at least 5ml, and I pulled about 40ml out of the back of the head since that's how it slants. Using a flashlight I was able to see pools of oil around the valves that wouldn't drain based on the slant of the motor, so I used the floor jack and lifted the passenger side tire about 8" off the ground, I was actually surprised how much more oil drained, probably 1/4 quart. So it sat without a plug for about 3-4 hours, all with a warm block and when I put the plug back in it was still dripping but only a drop every 10-15 seconds, if that.

While it was draining I changed the full flow filter, back to a Donaldson EFL7349 and put a new EaBP-110 on and hooked it back up.

I then added 3.25 gallons of Amsoil AME, and wouldn't you know the dipstick is 100% clear. There isn't a trace of black anywhere on it. I have never seen that, as those of you know with a 04.5-07 it's black before you start it.

I ran it for 3 or 4 minutes at fast idle, and then shut it off to check the level. I must have gotten more oil out than normal because it generally takes 3.25 gallons to get me 3/4 of the way to full. I had to add another quart and the 3.5 gallons (all I had) got me 1/2 way to full. The color of it is amazing, it's like brand new gas oil.

So the question is how long will it last... time will tell and I'll post back.

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Interesting!!!:smart:I'll be the "doubting Thomas" though and say that within 500 miles your oil will be black again...........irregardless of your engine mods. Just saying, not arguing!!I hope I'm wrong.................:2cents:

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I wouldn't be shocked at all to see it black that quick.. but it's something I have wondered about for years, so I finally broke down and did it. I really think the OEM retarded timing is the main culprit. Plenty of the stock injection event is outside the bowl. Not all of that was removed with the standard smarty timing, but I think my timing keeps it in the bowl now. But not holding my breath.

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AH, Im assuming the egr is what turns your oil so fast? Have you ever cleaned your egr valve? Dont know alot about them thats why Im asking. My motorhead cousin has always done a trick similar to what your doing, with gas engines (he doesnt own a diesel). Once a year, at an oil change, he will buy a cheap oil filter along with cheap oil, change his oil with the cheap stuff and substitute a quart of oil for a quart of ATF. He will start the engine, and let it idle for 15 to 20 minutes or until it reaches operating temps. Then he drains and refills with a quality oil and filter. The first time this is done to a vehicle it may make your new oil look black right away, this is the sludge deposits coming loose. And may need done again. As we all know, ATF is an excellent detergent. Ever notice when you work on your trans how clean your hands are when your done? It does the same thing to the inside of an engine. My cousin drives high mileage vehicles, you can pull the dipstick on his engine and it looks cleaner than most new vehicles. Even at the 4 to 5k mile mark, it still looks pretty darn good.

It's the soot from combustion that turns the oil black, and the residual oil left in the system, that turns the new oil black. Longer drain times including doing the oil change on a cold engine that has set over night helps alot. My '06 keeps the oil clean for awhile when done this way (Drains for at least an hour).

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