Little experiment with BLACK oil....

[Mopar1973Man]

So how long till black now is the question?

[AH64ID]

I hope a LONG time.. Between the physical mods and bypass I don't see why it can't stay clean... but???

[dorkweed]

Interesting!!!:smart:I'll be the "doubting Thomas" though and say that within 500 miles your oil will be black again...........irregardless of your engine mods. Just saying, not arguing!!I hope I'm wrong.................

[AH64ID]

I wouldn't be shocked at all to see it black that quick.. but it's something I have wondered about for years, so I finally broke down and did it. I really think the OEM retarded timing is the main culprit. Plenty of the stock injection event is outside the bowl. Not all of that was removed with the standard smarty timing, but I think my timing keeps it in the bowl now. But not holding my breath.

[hd99fxr3]

AH, Im assuming the egr is what turns your oil so fast? Have you ever cleaned your egr valve? Dont know alot about them thats why Im asking. My motorhead cousin has always done a trick similar to what your doing, with gas engines (he doesnt own a diesel). Once a year, at an oil change, he will buy a cheap oil filter along with cheap oil, change his oil with the cheap stuff and substitute a quart of oil for a quart of ATF. He will start the engine, and let it idle for 15 to 20 minutes or until it reaches operating temps. Then he drains and refills with a quality oil and filter. The first time this is done to a vehicle it may make your new oil look black right away, this is the sludge deposits coming loose. And may need done again. As we all know, ATF is an excellent detergent. Ever notice when you work on your trans how clean your hands are when your done? It does the same thing to the inside of an engine. My cousin drives high mileage vehicles, you can pull the dipstick on his engine and it looks cleaner than most new vehicles. Even at the 4 to 5k mile mark, it still looks pretty darn good.

It's the soot from combustion that turns the oil black, and the residual oil left in the system, that turns the new oil black. Longer drain times including doing the oil change on a cold engine that has set over night helps alot. My '06 keeps the oil clean for awhile when done this way (Drains for at least an hour).

[AH64ID]

Well I got busy and didn't check the oil until it had about 1500 miles on it, and BLACK!!I kinda figured it would go that way, but a small portion of me was hoping. At least now I know, and gave my motor a good cleaning.

[calhoon]

Just a quick comment on engine oil getting black. A few years ago, while attending a GM lubrication school this topic was brought up. The instructor told us if the oil wasn't getting black it wasn't doing its job. A good detergent oil should keep all of the soot etc. in suspension so it can be filtered and drained out. My used oil annalist has shown my oil to still be good at 20,000 miles even if it was black. Black is GOOD!

[AH64ID]

It is definitely the oil doing it's job.. but I almost think modern oil does it's job too well. Keeping it suspended like it does makes it nearly impossible to filter. I'd rather the oil didn't do it's job quite as good as suspending soot and let the filter do it's job.

[CSM]

It is definitely the oil doing it's job.. but I almost think modern oil does it's job too well. Keeping it suspended like it does makes it nearly impossible to filter. I'd rather the oil didn't do it's job quite as good as suspending soot and let the filter do it's job.

But if it settles... wouldn't it just settle out in the bottom of the pan and in the galleries?

How big is a soot particle? Chemically speaking, as just carbon with some hangers on, is it really detrimental to the engine as long as its evenly distributed in the oil?

Cool article I found regarding soot... They are trying to sell their product but it sounds as if it dropped out of suspension it would cause issues with lubrication.

http://home.servcofs.com/images/E0038501/EnergyInsider1_11.pdf

- - - Updated - - -

I also wonder if we could get fine enough filtration to get the soot... if we wouldn't be filtering out the detergents and perhaps even the hydrocarbons themselves.

[AH64ID]

Soot particles are sub-micron in size, and the best media filter is 2um absolute (centrifuges are different). Modern oil is designed for modern engines that put more soot into the oil that older engines, the oil keeps the soot from agglomerating and increasing in size. Since the soot doesn't agglomerate it doesn't get filtered very well and stays in the oil. With a good filter the soot wouldn't settle, it would be filtered out. There are 2 reasons that modern diesel oil is blacker than it ever used to be. Engine/emissions design and oil design.

[CSM]

Soot particles are sub-micron in size, and the best media filter is 2um absolute (centrifuges are different). Modern oil is designed for modern engines that put more soot into the oil that older engines, the oil keeps the soot from agglomerating and increasing in size. Since the soot doesn't agglomerate it doesn't get filtered very well and stays in the oil. With a good filter the soot wouldn't settle, it would be filtered out. There are 2 reasons that modern diesel oil is blacker than it ever used to be. Engine/emissions design and oil design.

What do you mean by older engines? Are we talking old 6-71 Detroits or old 300 RPM fly wheel diesels?

[AH64ID]

What do you mean by older engines? Are we talking old 6-71 Detroits or old 300 RPM fly wheel diesels?

As far as Dodge is concerned anything pre HPCR. A 2nd gen can stay cleaner with modern oil than a 3rd gen because of how it was designed to meet emissions.

[rancherman]

It's really not that big a deal folks. It's the nature of the fuel, I've got several propane powered jd's, and after a whole year of running, the oil is just a tad darker amber than when it's fresh out of the jug. This could be around 500 hours of running. Sure, there is probably some of important elements of the oil that has been burned/cooked off... but it's still transluscent. I am sure it's worn out too. (the lubricity factor) These tractors have over 20,000 hours (million mile equiv.) on the original rings and bearings. Then my 3208 cat, 466 JD's, 903 cummins 354 Perkins, 540 Perkins all turn the oil black the instant you turn the key! And have done this since almost new.. After 35-40 years of service and 18-24K hours on these "OLD" hunks, They have a little blowby, but still are very servicable.Geez, I just realized, Most of these hours (almost 100,000) were put on by me or a family member.. Thats a lot of 'SEAT' time! No wonder I gotta see a chiropracter a few times a year!How many guys are counting on a million+ miles in here? Most bodies will have rotted/fatigued off the frame long before that.

[AH64ID]

No it's not that big of a deal, but it's a fun discussion. My dad had a 3406 that would stay amber for hundreds of hours with a bypass filter.

[Wild and Free]

It is definitely the oil doing it's job.. but I almost think modern oil does it's job too well. Keeping it suspended like it does makes it nearly impossible to filter. I'd rather the oil didn't do it's job quite as good as suspending soot and let the filter do it's job.

Soot particles are sub-micron in size, and the best media filter is 2um absolute (centrifuges are different).

Modern oil is designed for modern engines that put more soot into the oil that older engines, the oil keeps the soot from agglomerating and increasing in size. Since the soot doesn't agglomerate it doesn't get filtered very well and stays in the oil.

With a good filter the soot wouldn't settle, it would be filtered out.

There are 2 reasons that modern diesel oil is blacker than it ever used to be. Engine/emissions design and oil design.

You answered your own statements, soot is suspended in the oil and is too small to filter out, but as I learned at my failure analysis class the reason for most engine failures now days is due to people using and depending on bypass filters and running extended oil changes too far and not refreshing the oil with newer oil to replenish needed additives that get filtered out. One thing people do not realize is that a dirty oil filter filters way better than a new filter as the larger micron openings are plugged, when that happens it starts filtering out the finer material which is where the oil additives start getting filtered out as well and this is where things go bad not to mention oil additives get used up and break down over time as well.

[ISX]

So if you cannot filter too good because it will take the additives out, and you cannot filter too bad because it will do the obvious, then when you filter the additives out, what are you left with? I mean you can run oil through a million filters until it is crystal clear but its not like you are left with nothing. So what is the something you are left with? Just how crappy at lubing is the thing you are left with?

[Wild and Free]

You still have lube at the end of the day but look at it this way, say you are on the lake one day and you leave your SPF 40 at home but you just bought groceries and you have vegetable oil with you, they are both slippery and will make your skin feel oily and soft at application time over the course of time in the sun the vegetable oil will have not protected you even though you are still oily you are left with a bad burn as the additives and make up is not the same as you would have had with an SPF 40 lotion.:think:Clear as mud?

[ISX]

You still have lube at the end of the day but look at it this way, say you are on the lake one day and you leave your SPF 40 at home but you just bought groceries and you have vegetable oil with you, they are both slippery and will make your skin feel oily and soft at application time over the course of time in the sun the vegetable oil will have not protected you even though you are still oily you are left with a bad burn as the additives and make up is not the same as you would have had with an SPF 40 lotion. Clear as mud?

Sunblock I get what your saying but you said you would still have lube which is what oil is supposed to do so... But I think you are saying it would be a much crappier lube since all the additives kinda combine to form a good sunblock. I just wonder what would happen without it all. What would happen if I just dumped mineral oil in my truck and put enough filters on it to keep it crystal clear? You would think those frantz oil filters are filtering just as good as a dirty oil filter and would destroy the engine but maybe they don't filter that good and thats why they aren't destroying engines. Then we have dorkweed running the same oil for millenia and his engine isn't destroyed either. So you can see where I have "thoughts" on things

[AH64ID]

You answered your own statements, soot is suspended in the oil and is too small to filter out, but as I learned at my failure analysis class the reason for most engine failures now days is due to people using and depending on bypass filters and running extended oil changes too far and not refreshing the oil with newer oil to replenish needed additives that get filtered out. One thing people do not realize is that a dirty oil filter filters way better than a new filter as the larger micron openings are plugged, when that happens it starts filtering out the finer material which is where the oil additives start getting filtered out as well and this is where things go bad not to mention oil additives get used up and break down over time as well.

Yeah.. it's when the soot level get's too high that it becomes an issue. For me my oil life is 100% determined by soot, nothing else. If the oil didn't suspend it so well and let me filter it out my oil would last a LOT longer.

[Wild and Free]

The thing to remeber is that you can't just run the oil and filters forever without any new oil being added to replenish the depleted and lost additives which are what make a typical base oil a good oil.You can run forever without ever pulling the drain plug but the filters have to be changed and then oil added to make up for what is lost during the filter change, When I did this on my 02 I ran 30K miles by just replacing the full flow filter every 5k and both the full flow and bypass together every 10k miles so together that was already about 5 quarts of oil changed and new added every 10k and that was plenty to keep things going strong.You get a lot of bad things in the oil over time the oil gets acidic from moisture and high soot levels ect that basically cause the damage to the engine more than bad lube.What is not talked about is how synthetic oils are less prone to break down and are more resistant to the chemical reactions of all the bad contaminants that build up versus dyno oils which is why they last longer and protect better over the long haul.