What truck to purchase

[kman522]

I have a 2001 Quad Cab Cummins 4x4 short box and I love my truck, especially since I haven't had a truck payment in the last 8 years. I purchased my truck new but my kids are not getting any smaller and that back seat isn't getting any bigger. I got permission from "head-quarters" that I can start looking for a new/used truck. I refuse to buy a new truck due to the $50k+ price tag so a used truck is in order. I have a larger 4" turbo on my truck along with the BHAF system, full gauges and of course 2 new fuel pumps. So, my question is what truck (year) would you purchase. I would like to stick with my Dodge but honestly I am open to any diesel truck. Do any of them come with a 4" turbo vs. the 3" originally on my 2001 Cummins? My new truck must have 4 full doors and 4 wheel drive is a necessity. Lets hear it, what trucks should I be looking at and why??

[ISX]

I would get any CR 5.9. I'm not sold on the 6.7. I think the later CR 5.9's are better (post 04.5?) but not sure, someone who owns one will chime in.

[kman522]

I have heard similar stories but I also have friends who have the 6.7 and love them especially because of the 6 speed tranny. I am not crazy about all of the pollution crap on them though.

[CUMMINSDIESELPWR]

I have heard similar stories but I also have friends who have the 6.7 and love them especially because of the 6 speed tranny. I am not crazy about all of the pollution crap on them though.

the emissions BS is what would deter me from any diesel...

[Mopar1973Man]

The only thing that stops me from CR engines in the price of injectors, the short lifespan of injectors on average, and the average life span of a CR Engine is much lower compared to 24V or even 12V engines. I got to admit the power is awesome in the newer trucks but is just the fuel system has its own weakness and increased price compared to olders systems. Oh yeah... the EPA BS needs to go away...

[98whitelightnin]

I like the early 3rd gen truck (03-early 04) but there is not much more room in those back seats either. What about a mega cab or a 4th gen will bigger back seat?

[dobienut]

Buddy of mine that runs a parts yard for mainly Dodge trucks claims he sells and has calls for the CR 5.9 alot. People blowing motors up keeps a big demand for him, hardly ever gets calls for the VP engine set up. His opinion to me was keep what you have when I talked to him about upgrading.

[Mopar1973Man]

98.5 to 02 24V life span is 1/2 million to 1 million miles.03 to current common rail life span is 200K to maybe pushing hard 500K.I've been asking around on the common rail and most fail because of the injectors. Either with washed out rings or burnt pistons take your pick. The only thing that typically fail on a 24V is the VP44.

[ISX]

98.5 to 02 24V life span is 1/2 million to 1 million miles. 03 to current common rail life span is 200K to maybe pushing hard 500K. I've been asking around on the common rail and most fail because of the injectors. Either with washed out rings or burnt pistons take your pick. The only thing that typically fail on a 24V is the VP44.

So I didn't know what to say about that, went to CF and found this http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/3rd-gen-powertrain/617695-million-mile-quest-ends.html So my question is, would a dose of 2 stroke and having the fuel ran through a frantz or centrifuge fix all this? I mean I haven't heard of anything other than injectors failing and as long as they have lube and clean fuel, I don't see how they could fail. I never hear about anyone running the fuel through a better fuel filter than the OEM one. Plus, why do the pistons score when the injectors fail? I know nothing about these CR symptoms.

[GreenRiverCummins]

I would suggest a 07 Dodge Mega cab the one with the last 5.9 cummin's there's nothing like a Mega cab they dwarf any other cab and will spoil you. My last truck was a 06 dodge 5.9 cummins mega cab had awesome power was stright piped, no emmison crap, and had 360k on it and the injector's were just starting to go bad before i got it it was used to tow Houseboat's from the dealer to the lot's i loved it and would still have it if not for a friggin little geo metro ran under me and lifted the motor into the cab with me... Gone but never be forgotten...

[Mopar1973Man]

It's the A hole that gets ruined with time and debris that causes most Common Rail Fuel System Failures. When the injector is stuck open because the A hole can't be closed then thee injector continues to fire diesel fuel through the entire 4 cycles of the piston which typically wipes out the rings and or pistons. The average cost of injectors is about 2 to 3 time more than a VP44 cost today.Here is RockAuto.Com for one 6.7L injector for 2007 Dodge Ram ($6,180 for all 6 injectors)

[CSM]

Considering what Mike posted, and my personal experience I write the following opinion.The 3rd gen is by far more of a comfortable, quiet, and female friendly truck. Purely stock, its also more of a truck than a 2nd gen. However, considering longevity, the 2nd gen in the 12V and 24V are both excellent engines and trucks which are surpassed by none.The only downside of a 2nd gen is that the newest ones (which Mike and I own examples of) are 11 years old at the youngest and likely abused by some punk kid with a smoke fetish. At this point, a 2nd gen is a labor of love in addition to a good truck, as many of the mechanics are not trained on an 11 year old truck and no longer have the diagnostic tools to properly service it. The 3rd gens are similar to a lesser extent, and require a special attention by the owner to find and keep a good working relationship with a quality 3rd Gen Cummins mechanic or to learn the stuff himself. I guess in short, I chose a 2nd gen. My dad chose a 3rd gen (with the expectation of filling it with grandchildren from my wife and I). My work, which doesn't have any interest except for moving crap from point A to point B, bought a fleet of all new cheap-o Ford pickups and keeps them for 4-6 years before writing them off and buying new. In my crazed, and warped oilfield / Air Force mind... :lmao2:Run fast, run far, buy a miata for a hobby car, a diesel VW for a daily driver, a gasser half ton for hauling the dog, and pack a tent... avoid campers! avoid commitment! and when you die, will your tools to the person you hate the most! (CSM may or may not have been drinking tonight)

[AH64ID]

There are some inaccuracies and poor examples in the thread.

Cummins gives the CR a longer life to overall than a VP truck, I want to say by 100K miles but maybe only 50K miles. Either way it's only 350K miles before Cummins says it will need an overhaul, and there are MANY CR's with a lot more miles than that on them. With proper maintenance 500K miles is not any harder on a CR than a VP. It may cost a little more, but cost per hp is probably similar. There are plenty of high mileage CR's out there, and lots that die a young age. I would have to say of all the motors I have seen die a young age it's due to the fact that with less than $1,000 you can have a 450-500rwhp truck that has too much fuel for the turbo and an idiot behind the wheel (to be honest with an idiot behind the wheel Micheal's truck, which has way too much fuel for the turbo, would easily be tossed in the short life lane).

I would be far more leery of a VP truck leaving me stranded than a CR truck, but they both have downfalls that can be fixed.

These are some of the most expensive injectors on the market, more than OEM, and they can move enough fuel for 1,000 rwhp +. http://sourceautomotive.biz/bbi-injectorset-stage1-1-1.aspx The link you posted to rockauto is NOT even close to the correct price of an injector. 6.7 injectors are more than 5.9 injectors, but still less than half of what rockauto has them listed for (so far I have yet to be impressed with rockauto's prices on most things).

So back to the OP, this is stock for stock..

The 03-04 are a little better on fuel than anything up until 2013. The 03-04 range from 235-305hp, and come with a 5speed manual (I would avoid), a 6 speed manual, or a 4 speed auto (not an auto guy personally, but early SO's had a 47RE (avoid) the rest were 48RE)

The 04.5-07 all have 325hp and mileage is down a little due to emissions. Choices are a 6 speed manual (NV5600 or G56 05.5+) or a 4 speed auto (48RE)

07.5-09 get a little worse mileage than the 04.5-07 sometime, and sometimes a little better. I would say ultimate average is down. All have 350hp, the 6 speed manual has 610 ft/lbs while the 6 speed auto has 650 ft/lbs. The auto is supposed to be a good unit if that's what you are into.

03-09 all have basically the same seat setup, 4 real doors but the rear is not a full crew cab and more like a 3/4 cab. I put my 3 kids back there without an issue, but they are still young. As they grow away from booster seats they will actually get more legroom based on seat height, until they get too big.

The megacab was introduced in 2006, it has a HUGE cab. It's a LWB truck with a short box, all the extra space is the rear seat.

The 10-12 have essentially the same engine as the 07.5-09 (minor changes through the years trying for better mileage). The 11.5+ auto's are rated at 800 ft/lbs. The 4 door truck is a real crew cab and has a lot of room.

The 2013 is the same cab as the 10-12 with a different engine setup. The manual sticks with lower torque 350/660, the 2500 gets a 370/800 motor and the 3500 gets either a 370/800 or 385/850 motor. The 13's went to SCR and mileage is greatly improved.

So that's the basis on the trucks. The 03-04 are the heartiest, but also the lowest power rating (coincidence??). Modern diesels run a lot of fuel pressure, with multiple injection events, and have some VERY tight tolerances. You cannot neglect maintenance on a CR like you could on a 160hp 12 valve and expect it to last. The motor is making right around 1hp per cubic inch, that's a big number for a work motor.

Hope that helps.

Not swinging any punches just trying to remove some of the VP love bias from the discussion from a VP heavy website.

- - - Updated - - -

A note on the 6.7. They were less reliable than the 5.9 at first, but the software improved and by 08.5ish they were getting pretty reliable, and today they are nothing to be scared of. They do have more moving parts, and thus more things to break, but are a reliable pickup.

If you get an early 6.7 I would check the service history, going thru a turbo isn't a bad thing as long as it got a software upgrade at the same time. That's actually a good thing as you have a new turbo and the latest software which is the most reliable and fuel efficient.

[Wild and Free]

I have sat through a few heavy diesel seminars in the last couple years and the emissions of the new SCR engine should not be shied away from, the bugs have for the most part been worked out and are very reliable as AH64ID pointed out. The thing that is going to change with the up and coming SCR technology is the oil that will need to be used in coming years is going to change again. So this will give you all something to wait for and think about.

[diesel4life]

I love my 2nd gen but my boys are growing like weeds and a mega will be in my future. I know more people with CR engines than I know with a 12 valve or a vp truck and they are all work horse trucks with high mileage. I drove to Wyoming at the beginning of July, actually when we left was right at the end of the 4th of July weekend. It was simply mind boggling how many Dodges are out on the roads pulling campers, flat deck trailers, wedges, BIG boats, enclosed trailers, etc. I saw very few 2nd gens, the vast majority were either 3rd or 4th gen rigs. They are very capable engines as long as an extra step in fuel filtration is taken for preventative measures.

[Mopar1973Man]

Not swinging any punches just trying to remove some of the VP love bias from the discussion from a VP heavy website.

Yea... Mopar1973Man -><-AH64ID... I'm VP44 lover... I've got two guys up here with 6.7L Cummins now. One is a insulation business and the other is a outfitter. Both owners are going through the gutting the DPF and blocking the EGR. Funny both had no problems getting the stuff to do it being all the EPA crack downs. But so far I've got little nothing to report about the 6.7L series as of yet. Just a lot of stuff to yank off the EGR cooler is a PITA to pull off from what I've been told. I got to admit the VP44 series is get older and hard to find a good condition truck and eventually it too will fade away. My biggest thing is I've seen so many CR engine up in central Idaho ruined by failed injectors where they are blowing oil out the crankcase vent and barely will run any more. What even worse is most of them are stock trucks without any mods.

[AH64ID]

ISX, I missed your question.

2 stroke and my truck didn't agree, but dorkweek likes it.

Piston damage occurs with injector failure when the injectors fail to close. Since they don't POP and fuel is always at the injector it sprays thru all 4 cycles, as Michael mentioned, and the leads to excessive piston temps and melting, which takes out the injector tip, piston, and cylinder wall in short order.

No need for a Frantz or centrifuge on the fuel (still don't like the idea of TP in my fuel/oil and possible water in the fuel means dissolved TP), there are several commercially available filters that exceed the filtering needs of the HPCR system.

What even worse is most of them are stock trucks without any mods, or proper maintenance and they use the cheapest fuel filter they can find

fixed it for you.

[ISX]

ISX, I missed your question. 2 stroke and my truck didn't agree, but dorkweek likes it. Piston damage occurs with injector failure when the injectors fail to close. Since they don't POP and fuel is always at the injector it sprays thru all 4 cycles, as Michael mentioned, and the leads to excessive piston temps and melting, which takes out the injector tip, piston, and cylinder wall in short order. No need for a Frantz or centrifuge on the fuel (still don't like the idea of TP in my fuel/oil and possible water in the fuel means dissolved TP), there are several commercially available filters that exceed the filtering needs of the HPCR system. fixed it for you.

Does filtering it with fancy filters fix the problem? I mean the VP is one thing but an injector that destroys an engine is quite another. So you wouldn't just be changing the injector, but the piston and liners as well. Do they even have liners? That sounds like a very expensive ordeal.

[Wild and Free]

Does filtering it with fancy filters fix the problem? I mean the VP is one thing but an injector that destroys an engine is quite another. So you wouldn't just be changing the injector, but the piston and liners as well. Do they even have liners? That sounds like a very expensive ordeal.

B series is a solid block, no liners, just need to bore it and go oversized or bore it oversized and dry sleeve it back to stock if just doing one cylinder. Added high quality filters does the same for the CR injector as it does for a VP44. The destroyed pistons and cylinders come from folks who don't care or know any better and do not notice the subtle changes progressively getting worse. No different than those who drove carbureted engines so out of tune they miss and backfire ect but just drive them anyhow. They are among us.

[ISX]

So how do you know when the injector is failing? Does the CEL come on or does it start running weird or what? How long does it take to destroy more than the injector once the injector fails?