Fuel Gelling with 2-stroke oil

[TFaoro]

That's where any of the above additives come into play. The phobia of fuel treatMent on this site baffles me.

I think it's more of not wanting to replace vp's because we didn't run some sort of treatment that keeps the pump lubed. I went through 3 pumps in less than a month... It gets pretty scary when you're taking that kind of money.

[diesel4life]

All the additives I mentioned above improved the HFRR score better than 2 stroke oil. Were talking about comparing formulas that have been designed and tested for a specific use compared to using an oil for something other than what it was designed for. There have never been any studies other than for lubricity to determine any long term effects good or bad of 2 stroke oil. While I concede there are likely no negatives, it hard for me to understand how people have no issue taking something that was never designed or tested for diesel fuel and dumping it in their tank and yet have misconceptions about using something that has been extensively tested and approved by OEMs.

[TFaoro]

Quite simply price. Even though it may cost less to put 1oz per 3 gallons of diesel of one of the additives you mentioned, the bottle price can be intimidating for some. 

I agree I'm not sure why some question using the additives you mentioned before but they don't question 2 stroke because it's 2 stroke. It's an oil that isn't going to hurt anything.

[diesel4life]

Schaeffers 2000 costs almost the exact same to treat a gallons of diesel as 2 stroke oil.

[diesel4life]

And to the comment of 2 stroke doesn't hurt anything, it is designed to be mixed into gasoline and ran through carburated engines at very low to no fuel pressure. Quite a different scenario than being mixed into diesel fuel and pushed through injector nozzles at thousands of psi, so while it SEEMS likely it doesn't hurt anything, I've yet to see any long term studies that support that statement.

[TFaoro]

Schaeffers 2000 costs almost the exact same to treat a gallons of diesel as 2 stroke oil.

Yes I understand this. Read what I wrote again and you will see that I completely agree. 

 

And to the comment of 2 stroke doesn't hurt anything, it is designed to be mixed into gasoline and ran through carburated engines at very low to no fuel pressure. Quite a different scenario than being mixed into diesel fuel and pushed through injector nozzles at thousands of psi, so while it SEEMS likely it doesn't hurt anything, I've yet to see any long term studies that support that statement.

Mike's at nearly 200,000 miles on 2 stroke. I think if it was going to hurt something it would have by now. I do understand what your saying.... but come on tons of people run it. Heck people even run it in CR trucks at 25k+ psi and haven't seen any ill effects. 

[diesel4life]

the bottle price can be intimidating for some. 

I understand what you said, and I was simply relaying to others who may have this misconception that a true additive costs more is not the case.

Just because others have ran it doesn't validate one way or the other the benefits or draw backs. Mikes on what, his third set of injectors? Again, not a good baseline to go by. There really aren't that many people that run 2 stroke oil other than the members on this site. Ask any John Doe diesel owner you meet on the street about using 2 cycle oil in diesel fuel and be ready for a "wtf" look.

[TFaoro]

We are arguing something that neither of us is going to win. I know a ton of people who do run 2 stroke in their CR, vp and 7.3 trucks. No one has had any problems and neither have I. If my injection pump blows up in 10,000 miles and Industrial Injection says it's gummed up with 2 stroke (What do ya think Ed    ) then I might switch. Until then each to their own 

[dorkweed]

 

Mike's at nearly 200,000 miles on 2 stroke. I think if it was going to hurt something it would have by now. I do understand what your saying.... but come on tons of people run it. Heck people even run it in CR trucks at 25k+ psi and haven't seen any ill effects. 

 

So am I!!

[diesel4life]

The whole focus of this topic has gone way off course. I don't believe there are any long term negatives to running the stuff, I was simply offering a better and cheaper solution to adding 2 cycle oil and anti gel together when you countered with the misconception that no antigels are capable of providing acceptable lubrication and that's where things got sidetracked. Personally, Im more than comfortable running something that's been tested extensively by Bosch and Cummins standards, and like to keep things simple (and cheap when possible). So for me the logical choice is to use something that's capable of providing both.

[c farmer]

I use power service all winter, maybe I should start running 2 stroke oil to?

[TFaoro]

You would probably be better off using one of the products diesel4life suggested. It would also be cheaper!

[angus]

I grew up as a kid riding two stroke dirt bikes, as well as working as a mechanic at a local bike shop. Two cycle oils were designed to operate under extreme conditions.  I use it year around in my 3rd Gen... The reason being I am concerned with the entire engine,, upper cylinders, valve guides, injectors, CP3, etc,

I have an unused 6oz bottle of FPPF sitting on the shelf in my garage that claims to treat 280 gallons???  I just have a hard time getting my mine convinced that a 3000/1 mix ratio will provide any benifit.  Maybe I`m wrong? but I know two stroke works.

 

BTW,  I know this does nothing to answer the OPs gelling issue.. My advice would be to look for a better fuel supplier.

[Mopar1973Man]

Yes I understand this. Read what I wrote again and you will see that I completely agree. 

 

Mike's at nearly 200,000 miles on 2 stroke. I think if it was going to hurt something it would have by now. I do understand what your saying.... but come on tons of people run it. Heck people even run it in CR trucks at 25k+ psi and haven't seen any ill effects. 

 

 

So am I!!

 

Dorkweed is the one that started the whole 2 cycle oil concept back in the day. I'm the one that ran with it... 

 

OE VP44 died at 50k miles (P0216) and was replaced. I'm at 240k miles now.

 

OE injectors are still very function and just stored away. My RV275 Injectors where used about 400k miles and managed to get another year from them. But then replaced them with +50 HP injectors and here I am today...

[dorkweed]

diesel4life;

 

I'm gonna throw this at you here for you to ponder.....................I know folks personally that use their 2 stroke snowmobiles in temperatures down to -50*F.  That's actual air temperature.  I've run my 50HP Evinrude outboard that's on my boat down the river in temps as low as -10*F.  In case you don't know, most all modern snowmobiles and outboards are "oil injected" 2 strokes.  No mixing of oil and gas in these.  That oil had better stay flowing when it's that cold, or there's major problems. 

 

Diesel fuel is "oil".................as is 2 stroke.  Plus 2 stroke is made/designed/formulated to burn, and burn cleanly.  In order to flow at those really cold temps, the 2 stroke has to have some "anti-gel" properties to it.  I'm not saying it's being sold or marketed as anti-gel;  because it's not, it just has to have those properties to be used at those extremely cold temps.

 

Mikes research years ago showed that most all 2 stroke oils have a lower "pour point" than does straight diesel fuel.  Don't recall if it was winterized diesel or not.  By my way of thinking, by mixing 2 stroke oil and diesel together at the low ratios/concentrations that we do, it has to improve the "pour point" of the diesel somewhat.

 

The stories and reports we read here about fuel gelling;  I'd be willing to bet that more often not, it's water in the fuel that's freezing and not the fuel itself gelling.  I've no way of proving that, but that's my gut feeling.  I live in northern Illinois........about as far North in Illinois without being in Wisconsin......................There's a lot of guys here that live in areas of the USA and in Canada that are much further North than I am that've never put a dedicated "anti-gel" product into their diesel in the Winter.  In addition to that;  I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of folks that drive diesel vehicles don't put an anti-gel product in the fuel they get......................And you don't hear of mass stories of fuel gelling around the country.

 

Someone above mentioned "Gummed up from 2 stroke" above..........................In a properly running 2 stroke engine, the 2 stroke oil is not causing the gummed up.  It's from the engine not being properly tuned and/or the gasoline in it that's evaporated and gummed the fuel lines and the carburetor up IMHO.  

 

I don't remember if it was Mike or someone else here.......................but they  mixed diesel and 2 stroke and let it set to see if it would separate.................it didn't.  Like I said above, 2 stroke is made to burn, and the ratios we are running it at is way less than what most folks use in their 2 stoke power equipment and toys.  I run 1/2oz. per 1 gallon of diesel............that works out to about a 256:1 ratio in my truck.  Mike and the VP crowd often run double what I do, or about 128:1.  Still pretty thin when compared to 40:1 used in most 2 stroke engines.

[diesel4life]

I think ive mentioned it here before, I spent a good part of my life in Wyoming and spent much of the winters snowmobiling so I'm quite familiar with 2 cycle engines and their "hardiness" in cold weather. My parents have had a cabin in the Snowies as long as I can remember, where they are are over 9500 feet in elevation and where we would ride would be well over 10k feet bjt we could end up as low as 7k feet. Learned lots about tuning carbs at various altitudes and proper mixing, if you didn't and got it wrong you were in big trouble!

Like I mentioned above, I don't believe there are long term effects of running 2 cycle oil in diesel fuel. The point I was trying to make was there is an EXTREME phobia on this site of running an antigel treatment, and its based off of some big misconceptions. There are some good quality additives on the market that do as good a job or better at increasing the lubricity of fuel as 2 cycle oil AND will drastically lower the pour point of diesel fuel. It is a strong belief here that any antigel needs a dose of 2 cycle oil dumped to add lubricity, and that is simply not the case. This was my whole point when things got "blown off course", why waste your money double dosing when you can simply use a good additive that does both? I don't understand the logic being used by so many here....

2 cycle oil will not lower the pour point of diesel, no way no how. For that to happen you would have to mix such a strong ratio it would be detrimental to the engines fuel system not to mention probably smoke like a freight train. I agree with your statement that most people that are plugging up are getting bad fuel. This is another advantage of running a quality additive over 2 cycle oil. They have additives that disperse any water that may be present in diesel fuel in order to prevent fuel icing and other problems associated with water.

Last year we saw many days and nights -15 to -20 below zero and our equipment started every morning without any treatment at all. We get our fuel from a reliable supplier with a good reputation with the local farmers. I use Schaeffers 2000 year around which is their "summer blend" and never have issues either, but if its forecasted to get as cold as I mentioned I have a bottle of winter blend I will use as a precaution.

Edited February 11, 2015 by diesel4life

[AH64ID]

My CR did not like 2-stroke at all. It made my exhaust brake stickey, so I cannot imagine what other places it left a coating on.

[dorkweed]

My CR did not like 2-stroke at all. It made my exhaust brake stickey, so I cannot imagine what other places it left a coating on.

 

Have you tried it since you've done all your "mods"?...................... and especially since you've had to essentially "re-build" your Cummins??!!!

 

Just asking.................not arguing!!

Edited February 11, 2015 by dorkweed

[TFaoro]

My CR did not like 2-stroke at all. It made my exhaust brake stickey, so I cannot imagine what other places it left a coating on.

Get the exhaust hotter and burn it off Just kidding! 

[rancherman]

Look,

The  vp44  was  a   total embarrassment  to  the Robert Bosch  corp.     They  didn't have nearly enough time to   get a prototype  put together, let alone do    any   longevity studies.    They were  putting all  research into  the  new  CR development.    They are supplying a LOT of  engine manufacturers  with  this  system.

The only reason  for the  '44's   existence  was to   fill the  gap  in the tier system,  and  buy  the  automotive use   diesels  some time.    

There  was never an off road  cummins   that  used the  '44,   they went  from  the   p7100's  straight to the    Cp3   CR  system.    Why?   Off road  use  didn't  need  to pass   heavy emissions  until  '06.

 

Before then,    most   materials  used in   the  pumps and  injectors    were   quite  adept at  handling the fuel of  that  day..    then  came along the weaning of the  sulphur      It wasn't  a  one time  stab..   .it was gone in about 3 waves.

 

Every day,  there are less and less  '44's  out there to worry about.     We'll never see  a  'fix'  other than  what  WE can come up with  by    trial and error.  

Cummins  had no problem with  pulling  oil straight from the pan  for  re-use  as  a  fuel.   They had a really  slick  setup for this purpose.   They did it for ease of  maintenance,   Not so much for   lubing up  the  fuel..   You youngsters  have no idea  what kind of  bear-grease  diesel fuel was,  back in the  70's!

Along came the   90's,   we  all heard of  guys  dumping in   everything from   used engine oil,  trans fluid.. Howes  was  a  hoot;   It's namesake is  LUBRICATOR.  shoot,   It did VERY LITTLE  for  helping the  HRFF.   It's OK as  a    'winterizer'..  but  don't let the  namesake fool ya.

One of the pump shops  near me   is  a  Stanadyne   authorized  shop.  They sell their products too,   and  even THEY   say  it's  not   enough.  5 years ago,  I asked them  "well,  what are we supposed to do??"

They said,   'get ready to   bring your pumps in more often'.

 

I use  2 stroke in  my pickups  for   these   reasons.

1.   I carry it along with me for refilling..    If I spill a little,  no big deal,  it smells like  normal oil.         Spill   a  stanadyne  type product,  and  your eyes  are   blistered over...   (yeah,  I know,  don't spill it in the first place)

2.  It's  ashless.  and  it's blue green  dye  matches  the   color of   ON ROAD   fuel.

2b.   It doesn't  cause  a problem when I  get  fuel checked by the  DOT.   (I have been   chewed out  when I used to run   WEO, 'black diesel'  I still run all my  waste oil  through the  tractors however.

3.   It's  everywhere you look..   wally world,  tractor supply houses,    I've even see it  in  a  larger grocery store in the   oil dept.

Is there better products out there?   probably.  

I CAN'T  speak for  the   whole community,  but    I can claim  2 stroke  has not  caused  me any grief  as in    fuel gelling.   Or  a waste gate growing shut.

  in fact,   all the trouble  I have had  in my posts  about  gelled fuel  is  when  I  have been lax  at keeping it in the tank.  (not because  of  the lack of  2 stroke,  but because I got caught with my pants down!) 

I was  a member for  about a week here  when I gave it  whirl.   I quit using my waste engine oil,  and  keep  jugs of  2 stroke on hand.   Mighty handy compared to juggling  nasty dirty oil, filtering it, and  getting it into the tanks..     Mike   is  just one  guy  with  real  world  results on this  'experiment'..     Now  if there was a way to  put  a couple thousand guys  in  the same room  with  2 stroke'd  44's,  with  a  combined  miles of  say,   half a billion...   then we could   rack up some  statistics!

 

All I'm  saying here is,   with the  diminished  number of these  trucks everyday,   we can expect  zero help from industry.    Can  we expect to find a  miracle  cure  that  Bosch  overlooked?  nope.  Geez,   there  isn't  a  definitive answer to WHY  the solder in the   pump's board  suddenly 'lets go',  or  what  temperature  the  pump itself becomes  'too hot'.    and   eats itself up..  how  can we expect to  come up with a   'perfect lube' ???

We  should   be able to extend  the service life of  the '44  with better lubed fuel,   but  don't  expect any  product that can  keep the pump  running  as  long as  the  engine itself.

Normally,   I  used to expect  a  diesel engine to  have a service life of  12-15k hours,  and  the pump would be tired too..  but  certainly not  rebuilt  3-4 times  a  44  would need to be  for the same hours.

with that said,  Mikes   44  shouldn't be  a  'miracle'  pump just because it has  200+K  miles!     It shouldn't even  be a blip on the radar!    But   he  seems to be  an exception to the norm... and  we  learn from others'  good luck!