Cold Morning Rountines

[01cummins4ever]

On Monday, November 16, 2015 11:53:39, Wild and Free said:

These are days we are talking -50 and colder wind chill days. Sub zero and 30 mph winds suck any heat away as fast as its generated then add road speed on top of that. We have outlets in our parking lot at work and I have had my cummins snort buck and fart and be extremely angry @ start up in extreme sub zero temps even being plugged in for 10-11 hours.

Anyone on the northern plains will tell you to stick the science and tails of wind chill not having any effect on iron. As a Diesel tech for over 20 years and a lot of it as a field tech can attest to the fact that the same engine at the same sub zero temps parked in the wind versus out of the wind act totally different. Can't explain it but all who deal with this know well that wind does definitely have an effect on iron, can't explain it but it does.

On Monday, November 16, 2015 11:53:39, Wild and Free said:

These are days we are talking -50 and colder wind chill days. Sub zero and 30 mph winds suck any heat away as fast as its generated then add road speed on top of that. We have outlets in our parking lot at work and I have had my cummins snort buck and fart and be extremely angry @ start up in extreme sub zero temps even being plugged in for 10-11 hours.

Anyone on the northern plains will tell you to stick the science and tails of wind chill not having any effect on iron. As a Diesel tech for over 20 years and a lot of it as a field tech can attest to the fact that the same engine at the same sub zero temps parked in the wind versus out of the wind act totally different. Can't explain it but all who deal with this know well that wind does definitely have an effect on iron, can't explain it but it does.

I agree wind chill has just as much effect as ambient temp, I can even feel it in my bones too

[AH64ID]

11 minutes ago, 01cummins4ever said:

I agree wind chill has just as much effect as ambient temp, I can even feel it in my bones too

That's because you are a living thing; however, your truck is not living. 

If windchill factor was real it could be measured. The reason it cannot be measured it because it is a calculated factor. Put a thermometer in a 60 mph wind on a -20° day and it will read -20° that means it has zero effect on non-living tissue. 

The reason we have a windchill factor is the wind wicks the heat away much faster so our body has to work harder to maintain it's temperature, which makes it feel colder. The same is true for a truck engine in that the wind will wick the heat away but it cannot make it colder than the ambient temp; therefore, a 60 mph wind will not have an effect on a truck that has cooled off to the ambient temp. 

[Wild and Free]

3 hours ago, AH64ID said:

That's because you are a living thing; however, your truck is not living.

If windchill factor was real it could be measured. The reason it cannot be measured it because it is a calculated factor. Put a thermometer in a 60 mph wind on a -20° day and it will read -20° that means it has zero effect on non-living tissue.

The reason we have a windchill factor is the wind wicks the heat away much faster so our body has to work harder to maintain it's temperature, which makes it feel colder. The same is true for a truck engine in that the wind will wick the heat away but it cannot make it colder than the ambient temp; therefore, a 60 mph wind will not have an effect on a truck that has cooled off to the ambient temp. 

One would think so but in this instance real world and science differ for some unknown reason. PFM! Another of mother earths great mysteries. You will not find a single heavy equipment tech who has worked on known fleets of equipment who would not share the same thoughts as I.

[CSM]

2 minutes ago, Wild and Free said:

One would think so but in this instance real world and science differ for some unknown reason. PFM! Another of mother earths great mysteries. You will not find a single heavy equipment tech who has worked on known fleets of equipment who would not share the same thoughts as I.

Addressed above.  Convection.  In a heavy wind, any small amount of heat produced while trying to start in the fuel, in the battery, in the oil, in the cylinders etc.  All will be whisked away and the engine brought closer to ambient temps far faster than if there was no wind.  With diesels and carbureted engines, this cold makes ignition difficult.   

[AH64ID]

22 minutes ago, Wild and Free said:

One would think so but in this instance real world and science differ for some unknown reason. PFM! Another of mother earths great mysteries. You will not find a single heavy equipment tech who has worked on known fleets of equipment who would not share the same thoughts as I.

Sorry... don't buy it for one second and actually find it laughable that you are throwing every single heavy equipment tech in the pot with you as I know for a FACT that it's false. I personally wouldn't trust a tech that tried to convince me wind chill factor effects non-living things as it's a sign they don't have great comprehension. 

Windchill is a man made factor, nothing more and nothing less. Mother earth didn't create the windchill factor, two men did. Paul Siple and Charles Passel developed and coined the term in the last century.  

Will a engine cool off faster in a wind than a no-wind condition? Absolutely but that's the only thing the wind does, there is no PFM or mother earth interference. A cold soaked engine will start the same in a heavy wind as in no wind, assuming that the cold soaking is the same. 

 

Put a jar of #2 in a 60mph wind on a 25° day and see if it gels. #2 commonly gels in the 15-18° range and in those conditions the windchill would be 3° but he #2 won't care and will still be 25° and un-gelled. Same thing with water on a 35° day blowing 60. The 17° windchill will have no freezing effect on the water.  

Edited November 19, 2015 by AH64ID

[CSM]

5 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

Sorry... don't buy it for one second and actually find it laughable that you are throwing every single heavy equipment tech in the pot with you as I know for a FACT that it's false. I personally wouldn't trust a tech that tried to convince me wind chill factor effects non-living things as it's a sign they don't have great comprehension. 

Windchill is a man made factor, nothing more and nothing less. Mother earth didn't create the windchill factor, two men did. Paul Siple and Charles Passel developed and coined the term in the last century.  

Will a engine cool off faster in a wind than a no-wind condition? Absolutely but that's the only thing the wind does, there is no PFM or mother earth interference. A cold soaked engine will start the same in a heavy wind as in no wind, assuming that the cold soaking is the same. 

I think there is some physics that could explain the difference.  From a heat transfer perspective, there very well may be a lot more radiative heat present on an engine inside, even if the ambient temperature is equal to the outside.  conduction, convection, or radiation.  I'd be interested to take an IR thermometer and compare an engine block in an unheated shed and one sitting right out side in the blizzard. 

[AH64ID]

3 minutes ago, CSM said:

I think there is some physics that could explain the difference.  From a heat transfer perspective, there very well may be a lot more radiative heat present on an engine inside, even if the ambient temperature is equal to the outside.  conduction, convection, or radiation.  I'd be interested to take an IR thermometer and compare an engine block in an unheated shed and one sitting right out side in the blizzard. 

If the time is adequate to allow a full cold soak and the temperature inside the shed is the same as outside then the blocks will be the same. 

In the shed it will take a lot longer for the block to cold soak, but it will eventually happen. 

So yes the heat transfer is slower when you are in a no-wind condition but the total heat transfer is the same given the proper time. Similar to opening a bathtube drain 1/8 of the way or fully open. The tub will drain to the same point but one takes longer. 

This still isn't windchill factor thou, even thou it's from the wind. Windchill:  a still-air temperature that would have the same cooling effect on exposed human skin as a given combination of temperature and wind speed.

Edited November 19, 2015 by AH64ID

[CSM]

Without data or digging out my heat transfer text, I can't say the end result.  However, radiation can change the temperature of a body without changing the ambient temperature.  It might be negligible, but inside a dirt floor shed compared to outside a shed might have a significant difference of a couple degrees.  

And why couldn't wind increase the convection on a diesel engine?  If you are trying to start an old diesel with a starting process measured in minutes, convection could extend the process. Granted, it isn't going to lower the temp past ambient, but it will get there faster as you said.

Edited November 19, 2015 by CSM

[Wild and Free]

 

Not going to argue anything just stating my life's experiences along with many others who have had the same experiences. Call BS all day if you have not had the 20+ years in the field literally I don't know how one can stand on the pulpit and preach science.

 

I flat out stated I can not explain but there is a definite difference. That's all.

So step down before I come out west and kick that milk crate out from under ya lol....................

[AH64ID]

Come on now... you should know better than to let facts be influenced by opinion. 

[Wild and Free]

Lifes experience trumps opinion.

[JOHNFAK]

BRRRRR

Really not looking forward to Monday

 

http://tinyurl.com/p7s93wh

 

[Mopar1973Man]

The one thing I will share in regards to cold. If you park outside in the weather and plug in the block heater vs parked in a unheated shed and plugged in. I would say the enclosed shed would produce better results of keeping the cold wind form taking away the heat. Even if it one of those canopy car ports that's enclosed on both ends.

[AH64ID]

Absolutely! The wind, even if very light, pulls heat out of the engine bay very quickly. 

Even on a no wind night I can tell a difference in the block temp with different numbers of flaps closed on the winter front. 

[Wild and Free]

47 minutes ago, JOHNFAK said:

BRRRRR

Really not looking forward to Monday

 

http://tinyurl.com/p7s93wh

 

You definitely need to make sure you are out of the ocean breeze if you have any shot at getting that beast running in sub 70*f weather lol..

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, Wild and Free said:

You definitely need to make sure you are out of the ocean breeze if you have any shot at getting that beast running in sub 70*f weather lol..

Heck I don't even hook up the grid heaters till October when the temps start to fall close to 30*F. Even then it starts easy. I know the Mighty Cummins likes to have a breathe of warm air to get the morning started. Kind of like I like to have my hot cup of coffee in the morning too.

[TFaoro]

You guys crack me up  

Edited November 23, 2015 by TFaoro

[AH64ID]

I drove the truck this morning and it was nice and cool at 15°. Without any wind last night the engine only got down to 29°, so there was some temp I could have lost quicker if it had been windy. 

My winter front is at my dad's in Seattle (ooops, packed it in the wrong truck at elk camp) so I am still full open.

I idled the truck at 1,1000 rpms for about 3 min while I cleared ice off the windshield. The coolant was about 85° when I left the driveway. The ambient temp quickly warmed up to 18° and generally stayed at 18-23° for most of my drive. I encounter 3 stops and 3 slow corners on the way to work and speed limits are 50-55 for nearly all of the roughly 17 miles. 

Even with that it took almost 9 miles for my thermostat to crack open and even after the next 8 miles into work the oil wasn't quite up to temp based on idle pressure. 

It just takes a long time for these cold blooded girls to warm up!

[Mopar1973Man]

Funny how a winter front will change that little bit of warm up time and stability of temperature under the hood. I understand what both of you @AH64ID and @Wild and Free are getting at about wind chill. I think in a lot of way both of you right on certain points. Problem is there is so many different factors involving diesel engines and cold environments. Hard to exactly roll heavy equipment and the dodge Cummins in the same roof. I'm sure there is differences in their abilities of cold operation. 

[Vais01]

I normally idle mine long enough to eat breakfast. Here in Texas for the past 2 days our mornings have been around 40 to 42 degrees and within the 10 to 15 min I take to put down a little breakfast my truck is just over 140 degrees. I don't get hard on it until I'm over 165 degrees. I've had this truck in 7 degree weather with no grid heater and only additives to keep gelling at bay. At that temp it took almost 35 minutes of idle time to get it to 140 degrees. The grid heaters really help warm up time too.