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DocH

Fuel tank and In-tank pump vs engine mounted lift pump help

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Hi Guys!

1st want to say a BIG THANK-YOU to all RE the Timbo, new alternator etc!

Running well, but low fuel pressure at VP44.

So dropped the tank and found the bottom of the "module" screens were clogged.

Local Dealer has no parts other than New In-Tank pump system, and recommended gentle cleaning with a soft tooth brush and brake cleaner fluid.

While Gently cleaning the the  bottom screens, the top one ripped.

My wrench guy removed the little spring unit that seemed to fit between the screens. (I think I said that right.)

We then put the new float level unit on and after cleaning the bottom screen, re-attached it.

But He did not put the spring thing (see pic below) back in the bottom piece of the white in-tank unit (Where all the tubes and wire connector for the level float are housed.

Will it work that way?

 

 

The lines look good..it looked the only problems were the fuel level sending unit was dead (gauge always read the tank had much more fuel than it did.

 

The tank is still dropped...but can We put it back in with out the spring-prong thing in the pic?

With the clogged screens, the New Airtex lift pump was providing just barely 5 psi to the VP44 at idle ( The low pressure wrning light stayed out), but with barley any throttle applied the warning light came on.

It had decent power, but I quit driving it until We could figure out why the lift pump was not providing enough pressure.

 

The Airtex E7153 specs show 15-30 PSI and 55gph free flow.

 

Now that the screen is clean, albeit missing what looked liked the upper screen, where it looked like the spring-prong unit fit, will it work?

The rest of the lines to and from the VP44 are new, and the return banjo bolt on the VP44 is replaced....

Suggestions, or just re-hang the tank and see what happens...

Thanks Guys

Ed

 

 

 

20161017_161328[1].jpg

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I'm a believer in cutting those screens out, adding a 90 gal. per hour water seperating pre filter before the lift pump. Much easier to spin on a new filter than drop the tank. Look for other potential clog areas too,  mine had an added screen inside of a white plastic small cylindrical shape that the draw straw came off of

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I had the intank pump for a while in mine and it is no better than the block mounted carter, actually worse in my opinion. It is a different basket than the oe but there are no screens in it. A water seperater filter should be installed like @JAG1 says. 

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Is the piece that broke look like this?

 

image.jpeg

 

If so, it'll be fine. When installing a drawstraw system in place of in tank pump you're supposed to remove that piece. Although that screen is extremely dirty compared to what mine looked like, so if I were you, I'd be adding some good filtration.

 

A couple reasons the Airtex isn't cutting it is 1. It's an Airtex and 2. Sounds like you still have the insanely restrictive stock fuel lines. If you want to even give the Airtex (or any lift pump) a chance to provide adequate fuel pressure, you have to replace those lines with at least 3/8, but preferably 1/2 just to know you'll never have restriction issues.

Edited by notlimah
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Thanks Much Guys!

She starts much better now cold and varies when hot, but still the low pressure warning light comes on under throttle..., but it takes  a bit more throttle now to cause the warning light to light up.

What do You Guys think of the Fass DDRP?

Just parks in place of the Airtex from what I see.

I really appreciate the replies and advice here.

Also, who makes a reasonably priced fuel pressure test kit?

 

Thanks Much Guys...

Trying to get set for the Move from Orange County NY to Klickitat County, Wa by the 15th of November

 

Thanks again Gents!

Ed

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That Airtex is what I have as a back up/priming pump.  When I have used it fuel pressure is 15-17psi at idle and down to 10psi wot.

DSCN0021.JPG     

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7 hours ago, DocH said:

Thanks Much Guys!

She starts much better now cold and varies when hot, but still the low pressure warning light comes on under throttle..., but it takes  a bit more throttle now to cause the warning light to light up.

What do You Guys think of the Fass DDRP?

Just parks in place of the Airtex from what I see.

I really appreciate the replies and advice here.

Also, who makes a reasonably priced fuel pressure test kit?

 

Thanks Much Guys...

Trying to get set for the Move from Orange County NY to Klickitat County, Wa by the 15th of November

 

Thanks again Gents!

Ed

Any illuminating in those warning lights and you are in the red zone on fuel pressure, I have a BD warning light as a back up and it will come on very dim at about 10 psi, and fully illuminated at around 5 psi,

I think you would be happy with a Fass DDRP, A reliable and proven pump,

As far as fuel pressure test kits, you could probably rent one at a place like auto zone for free, I would recommend an in cab fuel pressure gauge like isspro ev series, that way Thiers is never a question what the fuel pressure is, and you are able to monitor it at all times

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On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 6:54 PM, 01cummins4ever said:

Any illuminating in those warning lights and you are in the red zone on fuel pressure, I have a BD warning light as a back up and it will come on very dim at about 10 psi, and fully illuminated at around 5 psi,

I think you would be happy with a Fass DDRP, A reliable and proven pump,

As far as fuel pressure test kits, you could probably rent one at a place like auto zone for free, I would recommend an in cab fuel pressure gauge like isspro ev series, that way Thiers is never a question what the fuel pressure is, and you are able to monitor it at all times

Hi Guys,

1st, sorry about the long post...You are just starting to see One worried puppy here!

Hoping to have Big Blue ready for The Move!

Thanks for bearing with Me...

 

Well, after thinking about it and researching prices, I found an AirDog (R3SBD100) Raptor Lift Pump for $233 on Amazon and with it installed the low pressure light goes out after it Finally primes!

It's been a real challenge to get it to prime, but it seems quite a few other folks found the same in the Amazon reviews.

The problem is now the lift pump will run for 30 secs or so, and after a few cycles, the low pressure light goes out and she fires up, but then the low pressure light comes right on, so I shut down, then turn the key to start and the lift pump does NOT do its priming cycle. After about 30 secs or so, then I bump the key and the lift pump DOES cycle again like it is supposed to.

With the Airtex pump (only about 2 months old) , then priming cycle works fine, the engine starts and runs but anything over a tiny bit of throttle and the low pressure (5psi or less) comes on, tho the engines runs and I can drive it. I just did not keep driving it because I could see that the VP was not getting enough pressure.

We have put new lift pump relays in, and even jumped the lift pump connection at the relay under the hood at the fuse block, and the Airdog Raptor runs fine, but it does not get enough juice thru the relay alone to pump right?

Pardon Me if I am getting some of the terminology right on some of the parts-connections etc...as You really tell, I am pretty much a newbie on this stuff, but Thank-God I have a Really On-The Ball Young Wrench-guy who is doing the work fir Me, with My doing My best to relay to Him what I am reading here!

Maybe He and I will take the laptop to where I can get a WiFi connection and He can read what has transpired here for Himself...that way He won't have to rely on My relaying Your advice, as I am not sure I am always getting right in the re-telling what help  You have all given .

I am getting a bit concerned about getting the rig running reliably as We hope to drive Her across the country to Klickitat County by the middle of next month. I so much appreciate everything You folks have helped with, and so far the advice has been Great! The Timbo and the new alternator have worked out, now just to figure this gremlin out.

From what I can tell, something is keeping the lift pump from running, then the engine quits, after running "normally" for a bit.  Then, after a bit less than a minute, something seems to "re-set" and the lift pump runs again when You bump the key over.

Seems like something is cutting the juice to the lift pump AFTER the engine is running...

The only codes showing with the Key-on-off mode are now 0500, 1693. (The truck is at The mechanic's place right now, and I forgot to check the codes with the code reader before We finally quit for the night after about an hour of trying to figure out why She was not keeping the lift pump running after starting).
Thanks again Gents!

Ed

Just a quick re-cap on the rig:  2001 Early build 2500 Quad Cab with 161k on the odometer, K&N Filter, 4inch Turbo-back exhaust, Banks Big Hoss tuner that does not tap the pump wire, New fuel lines, New fuel gauge sending unit, Non-HO Cummins with 47RE, new OSC radiator, new DB Electrical alternator, new fuel pump relays (in the under hood fuse box), Timbo AAPS, new fuel return banjo fitting on VP44, VP44 and lift pump replaced in 2012 @ ~~114k, new spectra lift pump @ ~~145K, new Airtex lift pump ~~153k which was replaced with the Airdog Raptor 2 nights ago.

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Hope I can shed a little light for you. The fuel pump relay in the PDC, fuse box, under the hood is not for the lift pump. It is for the VP. The original set up has no relay or fuse for the oe lift pump. It was run straight off of the ECM. The proper sequence for the pump should be a short 2 second or so run of the pump at key on. Then bump the starter, no engine start, and the pump should run for 25 seconds or so. After that if you turn the key off and immediately back on, it might not repeat that. Wait a few seconds before turning the key back on and it should repeat that sequence over and over. The ECM needs a few seconds between cycles.

 Did the Raptor come with a wiring harness, including relay and fuse? Or is it just connected to the oe harness for the stock lift pump? I am familiar with the Raptor just not how they install. i dont know what relay you can jump out in the PDC that would run the lift pump unless a PO wired one in. The truck should not have one.DSCN0518.JPG

If you look to the left of the clutch fluid reservoir you can see the fuse and relay that came on the wiring harness for my AD. Did the Raptor come with anything like this? It uses the oe harness for a trigger for the relay and I pull 12v power from else where to power the pump.  

 I would assume that since you replaced the tank level sender that every thing was clean at the fuel pick up. Did you install a new fuel pick up or reuse the oe?

 How are checking to see if the Raptor is actually stopping after running a while?

 And as @Royal Squire says a fuel pressure gauge in the cab is your best friend. A good mechanical gauge is not that expensive.

 

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Very nice post Dripley.... I think many ECM's have been saved by the lift pump wired to it's own circuit.

Edited by JAG1
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If the Raptor did not come with a wiring harness, fuse and relay then you will need to wire it like this.

 

transfer pump.jpg

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I LOVE this forum!

I can't think of a forum where Folks are so helpful so FAST!

 

Thanks MUCH Gentlemen!!

The Airdog was a "Amazon Warehouse" item...I am wondering if it was short a few items.

Most of the plastic bags containing the small parts had been opened, but the pump had no diesel smell to it

RE the wiring, it only had the female plug that hooks into the OEM male plug down by the starter area where the pump was mounted.

When You received Your Airdog, did it have anything more than just the short cord with the female end that has 2 tiny pin-type connectors inside?

 

RE the pressure gauge, does a person want the pressure AFTER the big filter and just before the fuel enters the VP44?

Does anybody know of a fuel pressure kit that is reasonably priced?

Amazon is very helpful right now  as they bring things to the house...esp since the truck is down! 

Tomorrow  the Enterprise weekend Special will be helpful as They will come pick Me up at the house and then I can run to a local Auto Parts store...We have the usual assortment...Napa, Auto Zone, Advance etc. Anybody know of a reasonable kit from one of them?

 

"The proper sequence for the pump should be a short 2 second or so run of the pump at key on. Then bump the starter, no engine start, and the pump should run for 25 seconds or so. After that if you turn the key off and immediately back on, it might not repeat that. Wait a few seconds before turning the key back on and it should repeat that sequence over and over. The ECM needs a few seconds between cycles."

 

The above IS how the rig does act, but for some reason it seems the lift pump is not continuing to run after the engine starts.

When the Airdog is finished priming, the low pressure light goes out, then engine start, then the low pressure light comes on in about a second or 2.

 

RE the fuel pick-up, We re-used the original (No pump in the tank), and when I checked for a replacement pick-up assembly, the Parts Manager at the Best Mopar Dealer We have in the area said all that Dodge sells is the In-tank assembly unit.  But after reading here I decided not to go with the in=tank pump, so He recommended using brake cleaner fluid and a soft toothbrush and GENTLY cleaning the OEM unit.  But While cleaning the bottom of the fuel p-u unit, one of the screens tore, so it just has the one screen now on the very bottom of the p-u unit.

Is there an aftermarket p-u unit that I should replace the stock unit with?

 

Thanks so Much Guys for ALL of Your support here...I am beginning to sweat it a bit as I need to have the Rig running and reliable for the Westward-Ho run on the 15th of Nov.

At least My Wife and Her Oldest Son  along with Max the Min Pinscher ('tho He would dispute the "Miniature part!!)  will do the trip via Southwest Airlines, so  They won't have to watch Me listening to the Cummins for any sign of problems for 40+ hours!

We drove the same truck East on Our "Honeymoon"  15 yrs and 6 months ago when She had only about 30k on the clock.

I don't think the engine ever really cooled off on that trip...Sandy would keep saying: "One more state, then We will stop!!"

 

Thanks Guys and hope to hear more from You

Ed

 

 

 

 

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My AD came with the wiring harness with the fuse and relay. The oe plug for the pump plugged into that to operate the relay. You need to pull power from another source to the relay. That will take the power load off of the ECM. That is what @IBMobile wiring diagram shows. 

 

You want the fuel pressure gauge away from the VP but after the filter.

 

Vulcan performance or DAP, vendors here, can hook you up with a gauge and what you need to plumb it in. Just call one of them and tell them what your doing. I use an Isspro ev gauge. Simple but effective.

 

You should check and see if you can get a test gauge from one of the parts stores and check the pressure and see what the pump is doing when start it. It could be something else killing the engine and once it dies the ECM shuts the pump off. I am pretty sure on that. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

There are several after market fuel pick ups available. Vulcan or DAP has them also. The screens keep any big crap from going thru the pump. So you would be better off with a pre filter. Again Vulcan or DAP can help you with that.

 

My AD came as a kit with everything. New fuel lines, filters both pre and post, wiring harness, in tank pump removal kit to mod the fuel pick up, pretty much a complete fuel system. It also cost $600. The raptors dont seem to come with as much.   

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When I mounted my air dog 100, frame mount it came with complete wire harness , you might try google search on your pump type and you might find a diagram on line, Should be same as posted above. 

 

2. Fuel pressure reading should be after fuel canister or vp inlet 

 

3. I havnt checked fuel pressure gauge prices latley, I used genos when I did the electric isspro gauge, and it did come with all hardware and mounting and sending unit.

 

4. It sounds like you have the right sequence at key on during start up, If your loosing pressure during engine running, your loosing power to pump, you might try hooking it direct to the battery and if that helps you may need to find another power source other than the ecm for fuel pump.

 

5. have you pulled and replaced filter  latley and checked your fuel canister for  cleaning, that could cause a pressure drop. 

 

6.   Personally I like the Vulcan draw straw for  pick up tube ,  thier is a good write up on this forum on installing one, pretty simple and reliable. 

 

 

Sorry @dripley I didn't see your post, kind of the same scenario.

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Not to worry @01cummins4ever. Thats what we are about. Putting good info in the right hands to solve problems. I would rather see it twice than not at all.

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I have never tried to rent one but have heard some places have them. I dont know who does but thought it would be worth asking. 

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Dripley, no wonder your the boss... you explain things real well.

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Thanks @JAG1. I learned alot about the fuel system. Started about 2 weeks after I paid almost a grand for my lovely in tank fuel pump. Expensive lesson.

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7 hours ago, DocH said:

The above IS how the rig does act, but for some reason it seems the lift pump is not continuing to run after the engine starts.

Did your mechanic volt test at the pump to see if the ECM is providing 12 volts or not when engine starts.  If 12 volts is pump still running, if yes then test pressure. If not 12 volts then there may be an issue with the wiring or ECM

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Dripley that's an expensive lesson. I think that's the reason most of us are here because most have gotten burned one time or another. The Cummins is a good bet, if set up properly.

Edited by JAG1
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On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 0:03 AM, IBMobile said:

Did your mechanic volt test at the pump to see if the ECM is providing 12 volts or not when engine starts.  If 12 volts is pump still running, if yes then test pressure. If not 12 volts then there may be an issue with the wiring or ECM

Thanks for the reply!

I have been trying to get My mechanic to check and clean all the grounds...I disconnected all of the connections that I could reach (A large portion of My lumbar spine is fused due to an On the job injury years ago, so My ability to twist, bend and reach some of the connections under the hood and up under the engine is somewhat limited)... , then cleaned with contact cleaner, then applied dielectric grease and reconnected what I could get to.

 

How would things work if 12 power were supplied to the Raptor lift pump directly from the battery and a switch placed in the cab-dashboard, so a Guy would 1st flip the switch to supply power to the Raptor, then start then engine after priming?

Then just leave the lift pump running while driving, then to shut down, turn the key off, then flip the switch to shut the raptor down?

Would the return banjo valve just send the excess diesel that the VP44 was not needing at the moment right back to the fuel tank?

I'm thinking that might even help keep the fuel a bit warmer in very cold weather as the excess was returned to the tank.

Thanks Much for ALL of the help here folks!!

Ed

PS: The cost of a New OEM ECM for My rig is $697.00 plus tax.

The Parts Manager was surprised that it was not more...apparently the ECM for a much newer Ram was over 3x as much!

 

 

One more question...

My mechanic was wondering if there is a wiring diagram , I guess so He could wire 12v to the Raptor lift pump, but do it in such a way so that instead of an in-cab switch to send 12v from the battery to the Raptor, wire is so that when the key is turned on, then 12v power is sent to the Raptor.

Ideas or suggestions?

And would the simple "switch in the dashboard" be more straightforward?

Thanks Again,

Ed

 

I really want to get the rig running so I can "Test drive" it for a week or so, Before heading out 2900 miles to the NW...really don't want to be Road kill in southern WY or UT etc!!

Ed

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One bad with the switch idea is if you are in a wreck the fuel pump will keep pumping fuel until it is shut off. If a fuel line is ruptured and you are incapacitated it will keep pumping fuel. Have your mech check the voltage to the pump from the ECM. It is better to use that harness for a relay trigger and wire in a relay like @IBMobile mentions a few posts back. The ECM shuts down the pump when it sees the motor not running and the key is on.

 Another issue with straight wiring it is to much pressure to the VP during starting. The ECM actually cycles the pump on and off quickly to reduce pressure during starting. I have mine set on 18 psi and during starting I only see maybe 10 psi or less. Some VP's seem more susceptible to this than others from what I have read.

 Running under control of the ECM is the best way, but you would not be the first person to do it.I personally would not want. There is maybe another way to do it, I just would not know what that would be.

 As far as that ECM is concerned I would jump on that. Especially if it was new old stock. The only ECM's I know of are used or remans. I have not heard of any new ones. For $700 I would buy one and hold onto it. My Reman from Cummins cost me $1400 installed 5 years ago. Makes me wonder if he was looking at a PCM and not an ECM.

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