Custom Quadzilla Tuning R & D Thread

[Me78569]

@kzimmer has a stalling issue if he tries to force it to stall by blipping the throttle etc.    He can make it stall, but his wife has not told him that she has had it stall ( that's key when you consider she drives it mostly and is using the truck as a truck) .    I can make mine stall by blipping the throttle over and over.  I don't know if that is related to pop or injector size.  I never "tried" to make it stall before with the stock pop pressure.    We are missing the "constant" in our testing

It might be %100 related to pop, but we did not test using a stock setup.      Driving my truck I can promise you that you wont make it stall by trying to drive it.  

we dont have enough depth in testing to say if increasing pop is "worth it" but there is only one way to know.  Idle Hands, ya know? 

What are the real world Perks Vs Drawbacks. 

 

 

@jlbayes I wonder if the increased pop pressure was only done on smaller injectors during testing?   I have a theory that the larger the injector you have the higher the pop you can run without issues.  The ecm wont have to manage fueling across a huge % of command with big injectors.    IE: my truck idles at say fueling command of 300, vs a stock injector truck at 600.  if the ecm has to try and keep the truck from dying it must command a higher  % of fueling with stock injectors, thus taking more time to do so, which makes it easier to kill the truck.  

At this point I do NOT recommend guys bump their pop pressure unless they are willing to accept that they are going down a road not often traveled.  

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Me78569

[jlbayes]

2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

I have the lowest stall converter Revmax sells. even with temps near 0* my truck will not stall when I put it in gear.  I would love to know why, but Kole isn't having issues either.  The only way I can make the truck stall my blipping hte throttle over and over if I do that ~30 times it might stall once.  

I believe it happens, but I dont see it in my testing, confused.

 

It happened to me with some 7 hole nozzles and a tight patc converter. If you let the truck warm up 5min it would not happen. Cold start 20* and below if you pulled it into gear it would kill the truck. Reverse or drive.

 

2 hours ago, Carbur8tr said:

Can you expand a little on the fuel comment?

 

Also a tight converter would certainly not help, injector aside, but the high pop pressure we are testing.  Both @Me78569 and @kzimmer have been successful with their high popped injectors.  I hope to add to that sometime this weekend if I get the time to install them.   Up until this point most of the information on injectors has been hearsay. I don't discredit those who build injectors, nor do I think that they are necessarily wrong, but a thought we do have to consider is that they have an agenda and they have to make money.  What the general population wants and needs does not always fall in line with those paving the way for a different thought. 

 

I believe what Nick is thinking the ecm is pulling fuel to control idle. When the gear lever is pulled into gear the fueling command is so low and the converter pulls down the idle rpm too fast causing the stall. If I am off base on your thinking @Me78569 correct me please. 

These were 7x.010s. I will not name the nozzle source as to give him more adverting on a google search. Most of you will know who lol.

[Me78569]

@jlbayes what size injectors where those 7 hole?  What pop pressure?   

 

You are thinking what I am.

 

Example with %'s

 

The theory I have about this is, made up numbers,

 

Stock injector size

say a truck idles in P at %10 fueling, then when put in gear the needed fueling should be %20 to keep idle rpm.    The ecm must "react" fast enough to ramp up fueling.

 

7 x .010 injector size

say a truck idles in P at %8 fueling, then when put in gear the needed fueling should be %15 to keep idle rpm.    The ecm must "react" fast enough to ramp up fueling.

 

7 x .012 injector size

say a truck idles in P at %5 fueling, then when put in gear the needed fueling should be %10 to keep idle rpm.    The ecm must "react" fast enough to ramp up fueling.

 

The ecm doesn't need to work as hard to adjust fueling if your injectors are bigger.  If that fueling adjustment needs to happen in 1/10 of a second to prevent stall then the ecm has a better chance to adjust fueling as injector size gets bigger.

 

Now we know that pop pressure adjustments can lead to stalling issues,  increasing pop decreases duration.  So the idle % range becomes wider since duration is shorter.  It makes sense in theory that the bigger injector you go the room room you have to play with pop until you run into issues.  

 

that brings us back to injector size vs pop pressure and where the issue comes about.   What we still are %100 unsure of is what is the actually fueling duration lost per bar of increased pop.  Does a 7 x .012 at 350 bar flow the same as 7 x .011's ?   How much power is lost as a result of pop pressure increase.  

 

[kzimmer]

2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

I have a theory that the larger the injector you have the higher the pop you can run without issues.

 

I think this theory is sound.

 

[jlbayes]

7x.010 nozzles and 310.

 

Patc low stall converter at the time. I kept the same converter up until killed the trans when ppumped. It ONLY stalled with the 7x.010s. Same shop pop tested the 6x.013s and set them to 310. No stalling issues, ever. Which falls in line with your theory.  

[Me78569]

So I wonder what size injectors weston tested with.  

 

I tried to kill my truck by blip throttle on a down hill while in reverse and I could not get it to die.  

 

 

@jlbayes do you know of any dyno graphs showing the increased hp as a result of lower pop?  Curious to see how much lower hp was going form vp pop to ppump pop.

[jlbayes]

None, I doubt you'll get anyone to give those up. I can tell you both Seth and Weston have a pop pressure they like to use for a reason. As well as Don at F1.

[Dodgeih]

4 minutes ago, jlbayes said:

None, I doubt you'll get anyone to give those up. I can tell you both Seth and Weston have a pop pressure they like to use for a reason. As well as Don at F1.

It would just be really cool to get some real world findings rather than two people, or more just repeating the old because I said so" over and over again. It really seems like there was some small amount of testing done with higher Pop pressure with some small negative effects and it was just given up.

[jlbayes]

It was given up on due to issues with lack of tuning. Y'all need to keep that in mind. There are 2 people that were extremely big into the mechanical injection side. One of them still is. Everything we are being told is old. Yes it has been tried with no success as they had nothing capable at the time to make these work. Weston picks and chooses what he works on.....like Cody found out. This idea is in a very very narrow part of the market. That is ever shrinking due to newer trucks becoming less expensive to buy. None of the ideas or push back are the end all be all. We all have different opinions and expectations.

[Dodgeih]

I can Agree  with that... I'm still willing to put time into learning more about it though haha

[Me78569]

47 minutes ago, jlbayes said:

It was given up on due to issues with lack of tuning. Y'all need to keep that in mind. There are 2 people that were extremely big into the mechanical injection side. One of them still is. Everything we are being told is old. Yes it has been tried with no success as they had nothing capable at the time to make these work. Weston picks and chooses what he works on.....like Cody found out. This idea is in a very very narrow part of the market. That is ever shrinking due to newer trucks becoming less expensive to buy. None of the ideas or push back are the end all be all. We all have different opinions and expectations.

Absoluletly agree.  I don't fault them for not wanting to, it their product that's fine.   They are just not the right guys to be building injectors for us who want to mess with this like this.  

 

like you said it's a dying VERY small market we are talking about here.   My desire to play should not put someones business at "risk"

[dieselautopower]

Nick your theory makes sense.  Would like to see more testing out there.  I imagine that if you know the flow of the nozzle and the reduction in pulse width one could tune and figure out the correction factor in tuning from running 7x.010 to 7x.013.  With limitations of the VP44 and other variables it would be hard to isolate it exactly.  I do not believe it would be linear (which would make it easy).  Wish I had a dyno here.

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, dieselautopower said:

Wish I had a dyno here.

 

Might be a good investment for the shop... 

[Me78569]

6 minutes ago, dieselautopower said:

 Wish I had a dyno here.

and a spare room for me to crash in while I tested about 50x different tunes and setups hahaha

[jlbayes]

I wouldn't so much say risk as much as the publicity that goes with it when someone that does not understand what they are getting into asks for something special like this. You and the people in this thread have an expectation of what is going to happen. Joe blow that wants the super duper special nozzles and higher pop because bookface said it was cool won't. Is just a headache for them at that point. I see both sides of this, I really do. Fwiw I tried to get Weston to open up to it. Is not interested lol.

[Dodgeih]

I can see that side too, but it's not that much different than the same Joe Blow that wants to run 300 horsepower injectors on his otherwise stock vp44 truck with no lift pump or upgrades of any sort. That happens almost daily

[Me78569]

I dont blame him, why fix what isn't broken?   His injectors meet the goals of what he wants them to do.  He is proud of them as he should.   He shouldn't be forced to "play with stuff"  America!  

 

If I want to play with this I should have to find someone willing    which I did hahaha.   

[dieselautopower]

I think anything that can be done to improve efficiency, better control over smoke and power is worth looking at. If there are many negatives then its not worth it.  Would like to offer custom pop off pressures on the website so customer can determine the pressures (option box so if they want lowered pressures for P7100 or raised for quadzilla custom tuning) it would be an option for the customer.

 

The stalling thing is also of interest.  I know people even with rv275 and tight converter that stall constantly in reverse.

 

For most people it is a moot point as they won'y do anything with it.  Curiosity has a hold on me and I want to support it.

 

 

[Me78569]

When I watch the canbus message when I put it in gear what I see is

 

1. shift into gear

2. rpms VERY briefly lug down

3. canbus fueling spikes to ~1500 or %30

4. rpms spike as a result of the fueling increase

5.. canbus fueling drops nearly to 0 to keep rpms in control

6. Rpms lug

then rinse and repeat until rpms stablize.  the entire above only takes 1/4 second

 

 

as for a customer option on pop pressure,  I think that is a cool thing to offer.   I would say however that it comes with an "extra fee"  with a free repop or something like that.  also there should be a limit based on the injector size.  IE a 7 x .009 shouldn't be popped above say 310, 7 x .010 at 315 7 x .011 at 325 7 x .012 at 340   and so forth.

 

 

I believe line 5. is what causes the stalling.  

Edited December 14, 2017 by Me78569

[rogerash0]

Don's f1 220hp injectors in my truck with a 2-300rpm lower than stock stall converter (see firepunks site) will stall my truck when put into reverse when cold. I throw it into first, then reverse, and it won't stall. Typically just needs to do that once unless it's real, real cold.