New SO vp44 in HO truck, doesn’t feel the same

[PacNW24v]

A little back story- 

i bought  The truck with a bad lift pump I changed the lift pump to a raptor 150.  When I went and had everything bolted up in the original location for the raptor and plugged it in and went to prime my truck I realize that the driver for the lift pump through the ECM was bad I was getting no power to my lift pump so I hardwired it to an ignition source .  I knew in the back of my mind the VP was going to be close behind I anticipated the job. About 2 Months ago when the weather started getting warmer once my truck was hot it was having trouble starting it would take a few seconds to crank and then finally start so I ordered a new pump and put it in over the weekend drove it around feels a lot smoother but I feel like I’m down on power and then after driving a while shut the truck off and I’m still having the hard start issue. My FP is 21-22 at idle I’m going to turn it down to 18 or so and the. Wire in a switch for the LP so I can manually turn it on so it doesn’t get to much pressure when starting. That should get rid of the hard start issue.

 

so the problem is I have a HO truck and now have a SO VP with 120hp injectors and a quadzilla adrenaline and I feel like I’m down a bit on power. The truck runs smooth but not as fast and I get hardly any black smoke now even in my high tune levels. I installed the BD stealth plate and have 12v for the wire tap. Before anything over level 3 (out of 10) my clutch would also slip (soon to be done) and now level 10 in 6th gear I can bury my foot and barely get any smoke and my my clutch doesn’t slip. So I know it’s down on power. I pretty positive my key way is aligned correctly it slid right in and I watched it from the back side the best I could. So I’m stumped 

 

also is the gear for the vp supposed to be able to flop around inside the case? When I went to wipe oil off of it when the pump was out the gear moves around very easily. 

 

Thanks in advance 

[Mopar1973Man]

Typically I the type that doesn't suggest swapping VP's (SO for HO). I know some people say you can.

 

25 minutes ago, PacNW24v said:

is the gear for the vp supposed to be able to flop around inside the case?

 

Yes. There is nothing to hold the gear when the VP44 pump is removed. 

[Me78569]

Guessing you have a weak SO pump if you are having these issues after install.   the ho pump should have a little more go right off idle, but the SO with a programmer should be nearly the same down low and catch up by the meat of the power band.  

[PacNW24v]

31 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Typically I the type that doesn't suggest swapping VP's (SO for HO). I know some people say you can.

 

 

 

Only reason I did this was because everything I have read says the HO pump isn’t good for higher HP numbers and the SO is good for 700+/- . I have a few more things in the works for power coming soon, so I wanted to be on the safe side with the new VP44

Edited June 25, 2018 by PacNW24v

[Mopar1973Man]

6 minutes ago, PacNW24v said:

SO is good for 700+/- .

 

Yeah, when you go to a Dragon Fire VP44...

https://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/0470506028df/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwpcLZBRCnARIsAMPBgF1AeYYHMYeYicpEJ0Ky81zp93EQqjNPd5j747PFh4NT10U2fVZ8CpYaAi1-EALw_wcB

[Dieselfuture]

Not sure if it's possible for vp gear to jump a tooth with pump out, but that would definitely decrease power. 

[trreed]

It's not possible.  @TFaoro tried once.  Couldn't get it to jump a tooth

[trreed]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Yeah, when you go to a Dragon Fire VP44...

https://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/0470506028df/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwpcLZBRCnARIsAMPBgF1AeYYHMYeYicpEJ0Ky81zp93EQqjNPd5j747PFh4NT10U2fVZ8CpYaAi1-EALw_wcB

Not necessarily.  Some SO Rebuilds are good enough to get you there.  @jlbayes says its possible if you want to use a secondary that most wouldn't consider for single turbo use.  If you have enough injector and turbo it'll go that high on an SO

[Mopar1973Man]

T

14 minutes ago, trreed said:

Some SO Rebuilds are good enough to get you there.

Keyword is "some"...

 

That being said some pumps are built with better pump timing, pressures and volumes and others well didn't get all the love they should have just made the bottom margin. Like that why I may never reach my high mark of 27.2 MPG because the current pump is not built with the same kind of love as the last pump I had. (Midwest SO pump)

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[trreed]

I'm not disagreeing with you on rebuild quality.  Can tell you mine is a questionable rebuild as well, and went in for warranty a month into ownership.  Same Midwest SO pump.  But the SO pumps that can make +/-700 are out there.

[Mopar1973Man]

2 minutes ago, trreed said:

But the SO pumps that can make +/-700 are out there.

 

I would say Industrial Injection would be a better source then. Pay a bit more for the pumps. 

[trreed]

Industrial has just as many problems with their VPs as any other manufacturer.  Tyler's final VP was from Industrial - I think he had like 25k miles on it when it sheared something in the housing.

Edited June 25, 2018 by trreed

[Mopar1973Man]

19 minutes ago, trreed said:

think he had like 25k miles on it when it sheared something in the housing

 

Most likely the rotor plate. That would be the weakest link in the pump. The 3 armed piece next to the main shaft. This piece couples the main shaft to the rotor.  

Edited June 25, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[PacNW24v]

2 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

Not sure if it's possible for vp gear to jump a tooth with pump out, but that would definitely decrease power. 

This is what I was worried about, that I jumped a tooth and now it’s not timed correctly 

[Mopar1973Man]

As far as I know, there is no way to lift the gear high enough to get the gear to skip a tooth. You would have to remove the gear case cover and remove the gear to change its position. 

[dripley]

If it could jump a tooth we would have been discussing the problem along time ago with as many pumps that have been swapped out over the years.

 

And I have to ask. If the gear jumped one tooth would that not make a pretty drastic change in how the pump runs?

[trreed]

Jumping a tooth would either advance or retard the mechanical timing by 10*.... which the pump theoretically would compensate for and give you the same timing range.

[Dieselfuture]

5 minutes ago, trreed said:

Jumping a tooth would either advance or retard the mechanical timing by 10*.... which the pump theoretically would compensate for and give you the same timing range.

Are you saying there are 36 teeth on that gear pulley 

[dripley]

8 minutes ago, trreed said:

Jumping a tooth would either advance or retard the mechanical timing by 10*.... which the pump theoretically would compensate for and give you the same timing range.

If that's the case why is the key in the shaft so critical to be precise? Inquiring minds are trying to learn.

[trreed]

I believe the key is important for the internal ckp sensor in the VP and how it is calibrated with the PSG

42 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

Are you saying there are 36 teeth on that gear pulley 

Haven't counted.  Regurgitated information from people who know way more about this than I do

Edit: there are 72 teeth on a VP gear.  Which means there's 72 on the cam gear, and 36 on the crank gear.  Which means the VP turns once for every two revolutions of the crankshaft, giving you 360* and 10* per tooth, even tho 72 teeth means 5* on the gear.

Edited June 25, 2018 by trreed