DAP Injector Upgrade 7 x 0.010 @ 320 Bar

[Me78569]

2 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

 

When you get time, could you explain this a little more, please. Currently running an Edge Juice and RV's with about 290k miles on them, so I should buy something new. I do need to stay at my current power level (400hp) due to stock turbo, stage one clutch and wallet. Could I turn the Juice down to about level 2 with larger injectors and still get my 400hp? I am also really not interested in 100k mile injectors. The RV's last a long time for whatever reason.

 

7 x .010's give you a solid 400hp worth of fuel without wiretap.  

 

Wiretap is great for high rpms and getting peak fueling, but it is hard to control.   with larger injectors you can run much lower duration to get the same overall power.   The shorter duration means  you are injecting all your fuel at a specific point in time.   

 

When you think about timing for example,   

 

A big injector with low duration means you are injecting your fuel right where you want it.  Example you might be injecting  all your fuel between 20* BTDC - 15* BDTC

 

A small injector with long duration means you are injecting your fuel across a very broad area of the crank rotation.   Example you might be injecting  all your fuel between 20* BTDC - 5* ADTC

[Mopar1973Man]

3 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

Currently running an Edge Juice and RV's with about 290k miles on them,

 

First off most all injectors are on the losing end by 100k miles. I can say without a doubt even my factory OEM injectors by 150k miles were at 260 bar and failed. Still ran fine and no smoke but the atomization was poor. 

 

My Vulcan Performance injectors failed shortly after 80k miles started missing at idle. Sign of low pop pressure.

 

My DAP 7 x 0.0085 showed signs of getting low pop pressure by 75k miles. Still ran fine but the engine load was dropping at idle and ECM was fighting to cut fuel flow to keep 800 idle RPM. 

 

The other problem is Edge Juice has no fuel map or timing adjustments. Basically, your main level is your fuel and timing control. This canned tune is designed strictly for stock injectors. When I upgrade to the +50HP Vulcan Injectors on the Edge Comp I was fighting smoke control something horrid. I wanted more fuel but the defuel side of the sublevel did a crappy job of controlling smoke. Swapped to Quadzilla smoke was no longer an issue being you can tune below stock fuel map where Edge products can't do Edge Products can lag the fuel but not a good method of smoke control. Now timing changes for a few different reasons like my previous wore out 7 x0.0085 I had to crank up the timing high to 21* to keep efficiency up. Now with fresh injectors that popped high (320 bar) I can turn it down to 18*. Another point that Edge Products can do anything about no way to adjust timing other than raise and lower the main setting which now is cutting the fuel and timing as well being bound together. 

 

Edge Comp 

Stock to RV275 - These two worked good for smoke and power.

RV275 to +50HP - The +50HP were smokey and hard to control from the Edge Comp.

 

Quadzilla

+50HP to +75HP - What the Edge Comp couldn't do the Quadzilla clean up and allow for more power. 

+150 HP - Now at my current set and capable of fair clean burning. Still working a tune for MPG. 

[pepsi71ocean]

4 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

 

When you get time, could you explain this a little more, please. Currently running an Edge Juice and RV's with about 290k miles on them, so I should buy something new. I do need to stay at my current power level (400hp) due to stock turbo, stage one clutch and wallet. Could I turn the Juice down to about level 2 with larger injectors and still get my 400hp? I am also really not interested in 100k mile injectors. The RV's last a long time for whatever reason.

 

Did you custom order your injectors for more pressure over whatever stock is? New or rebuilt bodies? Also, VCO v/s SAC, it sounds like the SAC last longer? I need to buy something new since my RV's have so many miles on them but I really don't want a 100k injector. Thanks.

 

I have 100hp injectors set to 322BAR and I love them, good smoke control for me on my smarty. Just make sure you ask to have them set higher. My injectors  needed to be reset at 33,000 miles. They were set to 300BAR when i first got them, and then they settled in to about 290, and were sitting around 280-286 when I pulled them. My advise is to go to 320-325BAR if your looking for 100-150HP injectors.

 

I run a smarty so for me I needed the smoke control that I got with the higher pop pressure.

[NIsaacs]

2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

7 x .010's give you a solid 400hp worth of fuel without wiretap.  

 

 

Can the Juice control the smoke if I turn it down? If it just during low boost I don't mind that, I can control that with my foot but I don't want smoke at high boost. I tow almost all the time so they will need to work with that.

[Me78569]

The edge only adds fueling on top of stock.  You can drive around smoke, plenty of guys do.  not something I prefer.  

 

on the upper end of the rpm band it should be fine with smoke assuming you aren't running the snot out of wiretap settings on the edge.

[NIsaacs]

44 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

 

I have 100hp injectors set to 322BAR and I love them, good smoke control for me on my smarty. Just make sure you ask to have them set higher. My injectors  needed to be reset at 33,000 miles. They were set to 300BAR when i first got them, and then they settled in to about 290, and were sitting around 280-286 when I pulled them. My advise is to go to 320-325BAR if your looking for 100-150HP injectors.

 

I run a smarty so for me I needed the smoke control that I got with the higher pop pressure.

 

Thanks for the input. Are yours SAC or VCO? New bodies or rebuilt? I understand the SAC last longer? I wouldn't want to pull them from time to time and pop them. My RV's have about 290k and sound/seem fine. I am sure they are tired but run great still.

2 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

First off most all injectors are on the losing end by 100k miles. I can say without a doubt even my factory OEM injectors by 150k miles were at 260 bar and failed. Still ran fine and no smoke but the atomization was poor. 

 

My Vulcan Performance injectors failed shortly after 80k miles started missing at idle. Sign of low pop pressure.

 

My DAP 7 x 0.0085 showed signs of getting low pop pressure by 75k miles. Still ran fine but the engine load was dropping at idle and ECM was fighting to cut fuel flow to keep 800 idle RPM. 

 

 

Edge Comp 

Stock to RV275 - These two worked good for smoke and power.

RV275 to +50HP - The +50HP were smokey and hard to control from the Edge Comp.

 

 

 

Is the Comp the same as the Juice? Did you get new or rebuilt bodies. I noticed you got VCO style...I understand the SAC last longer?

 

Maybe I better stay with the RV's. I run on level 5 most of the time but was wanting to get bigger injectors and run level 2 (same as EZ)  

[Mopar1973Man]

50 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

Is the Comp the same as the Juice?

 

Same software just no extra toys like the screen, and extra settings like EGT etc. Edge Comp is just the simple version of the Edge Juice. 

 

50 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

Did you get new or rebuilt bodies.

 

Sent my OEM stock injector bodies in for new nozzles. Then specified the pop pressure I wanted. 

 

51 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

I noticed you got VCO style

 

Might be true. Most here tend to use the VCO over SAC nozzles. SAC for some reason I had bad stalling problems and nasty lope issues. Now with the VCO nozzles and the current set up its lopes very mild and no stalling issues. The lope is only during coasting to stop with the clutch in. 

 

52 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

Maybe I better stay with the RV's.

 

Only if you going to keep the Edge Juice.

 

If you upgrade to the Quadzilla the smallest I would suggest is the 7 x 0.010 injectors (+150 HP). The 7 x 0.0085 were OK but you got to add quite a bit on the Quadzilla to make them work to the full potential. The 7 x 0.010 you actually cutting fuel back. Not having to stress the VP44 pump 150% more. My current max is 120% fuel (out of 150%). Wiretap is turned down to a minimum of 1,200us pulse (out of 2,200us pulse). 

 

55 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

I run on level 5 most of the time but was wanting to get bigger injectors and run level 2 (same as EZ)  

Drop in level is going to be a drop in timing (not good). This was a huge problem I had with Edge Comp as well. The timing was good on level 5 but with bigger injectors, it got too smoky. Need to unbind the fuel and timing so the fuel goes down and timing goes up. The other problem is to control over when the cruise timing happens. Edge Products follow the ECM which is about 20% engine load. Above that, it drops the cruise timing advancement. 

[NIsaacs]

54 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Only if you going to keep the Edge Juice.

 

Drop in level is going to be a drop in timing (not good). This was a huge problem I had with Edge Comp as well.  

 

Yes, I need to keep the Juice. I was afraid of the lower level doing that. It gets the best fuel mileage on 5 out of all levels and I really like the HP for passing on two lane roads.

 

I have been really satisfied with the RV's....12 years with an EZ and now 4 years with the Juice...so even tho they seem fine I am sure they are due. Thanks for the help.

[dripley]

I ran my comp with RVs and put in a set of 50s and the smoke difference was a bit intolerable. The only way I could negate the smoke was with my foot. It was quite annoying. The RVs smoke some but clear up fast enough not worry about it. 

[Mopar1973Man]

3 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

It gets the best fuel mileage on 5 out of all levels

 

Bingo. Just like I learned years ago. This what made it impossible to upgrade to larger injectors. 

 

2 minutes ago, dripley said:

I ran my comp with RVs and put in a set of 50s and the smoke difference was a bit intolerable.

 

Just like I said the Edge Products are designed for stock injectors. @dripley just confirms what I said about the larger injectors. 

 

It all based on the fuel map being too steep for any other injectors. This was the problem in the early years when people started upgrading but the tuners could work with oversized injectors. 

 

Like I'm learning about the larger injectors. Being the bigger injector nozzles can flow more fuel in a shorter time this focuses the fuel right in time. Instead of the smaller injectors that spread it over a long period of time because it flows much less. Then you crank up the rail pressure (either by CANBus or Wiretap) now you're making the injection event longer to flow the extra fuel on a small injector nozzle. This actually would reduce the stress on the VP44 on the pump section. If I idle with 13% engine load and to cruise at 60 MPH I'm barely 17% engine load.

[dripley]

There was no real way to tune smoke out. Even on sub level one it would still smoke some and the throttle response sucked. I would always have to roll into the throttle to clear the smoke with some boost and then mat it

[pepsi71ocean]

12 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

 

Thanks for the input. Are yours SAC or VCO? New bodies or rebuilt? I understand the SAC last longer? I wouldn't want to pull them from time to time and pop them. My RV's have about 290k and sound/seem fine. I am sure they are tired but run great still.

 

Is the Comp the same as the Juice? Did you get new or rebuilt bodies. I noticed you got VCO style...I understand the SAC last longer?

 

Maybe I better stay with the RV's. I run on level 5 most of the time but was wanting to get bigger injectors and run level 2 (same as EZ)  

 

Mine are VCO, and don't get me wrong the main reason I pulled them was for smoke control and experimentation with my S03 Smarty.  Mike and I theorized about the effects of raising pop pressure and the spool effects it would have with the smarty. Now we were basing the injectors on what they were set to to where I was which was 33,000 miles. I'm sure that If I wanted to I could have left them in, but the want to experiment was more then not.  Raising the pop pressure I expect to go about 50,000 if not more miles on these before they are back into the 290 range. I think were not sure of the long term effects, but so far I've not seen any. Running larger injectors is just part of the game, pulling and shipping injectors for me was 5 days from pull till they were back in the truck. A good thorough PM needs to be done anyways on the truck.

 

If you do go larger i suggest nothing over 100hp unless your going to switch to a quad. I think that anywhere up to 100HP with a higher pop pressure seems to solve a bit of smoke issues. For me and my Smarty It did.

 

As for pulling them. I expect to pull them again and have them checked on my 40,000 mile PM, which included allot of fluid changes, and R&R work, so the truck will be down for a few days anyways. You should be flushing the Brake fluid, Engine Coolant, Power Steering Fluid, Transfer case,  Fuel filters, drop the pan and do a band adjustment with a new filter, and do my differentials if you tow. For me that's usually 3 days worth of work if not more so it kinda works for me. 

 

Mind you i'll be pulling them to verify the pop pressure, but to me that's when I'll do it, and If not I'll reset them to maybe 325bar and see how that works then. There is a breaking drop of about 10 bar between setting  and settled in pressure, so in reality I lost between 4 and 8 Bar in pressure after the settled in. Assuming this I hope to see much more service life out of these. One can be hopeful in this however.

 

 

4 hours ago, dripley said:

There was no real way to tune smoke out. Even on sub level one it would still smoke some and the throttle response sucked. I would always have to roll into the throttle to clear the smoke with some boost and then mat it

 

I wonder how that would change with higher popped injectors.

[NIsaacs]

10 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Bingo. Just like I learned years ago. This what made it impossible to upgrade to larger injectors. 

 

Just like I said the Edge Products are designed for stock injectors. @dripley just confirms what I said about the larger injectors. 

 

 

Thanks again. I am not into beta testing/R&D experimenting, that's why I read all the time. I don't want to buy twice. I am a good mechanic but not a hot rod mechanic, there is a big difference so I rely on threads like this.

3 hours ago, pepsi71ocean said:

 

As for pulling them. I expect to pull them again and have them checked on my 40,000 mile PM, which included allot of fluid changes, and R&R work, so the truck will be down for a few days anyways. You should be flushing the Brake fluid, Engine Coolant, Power Steering Fluid, Transfer case,  Fuel filters, drop the pan and do a band adjustment with a new filter, and do my differentials if you tow. For me that's usually 3 days worth of work if not more so it kinda works for me. 

 

 

 

Thanks for the feed back, that's why I am here. I only want to do something once and if it ain't broke I don't fix it. However, I don't even listen to my stereo, it is all about the engine/truck. If I hear a strange noise I am all over it. My truck is a work truck and needs to always be ready for a load. I stagger my maintenance so it is only down a few hours. I have 326k miles on both Dodge trucks, (each), never walked yet....now my Ford....yup, several times

Edited February 5, 2019 by NIsaacs

[dripley]

3 hours ago, pepsi71ocean said:

 

I wonder how that would change with higher popped injectors.

I figured I would try a higher popped set after the head gasket and see.

[NIsaacs]

10 hours ago, dripley said:

I ran my comp with RVs and put in a set of 50s and the smoke difference was a bit intolerable. The only way I could negate the smoke was with my foot. It was quite annoying. The RVs smoke some but clear up fast enough not worry about it. 

 

Thanks for your experience, I am not into smoke/fuel going out the tail pipe. The RV's have been great so I will go back to them. I am totally happy with 400 hp, so far.....when a new turbo comes,  might get a small bug again

15 hours ago, Me78569 said:

The edge only adds fueling on top of stock.  You can drive around smoke, plenty of guys do.  not something I prefer.  

 

 

Thanks for the lesson, I really don't want drive around the smoke either. When you are loaded all the time it is a pain and even with 6 gears it causes delayed acceleration and now you need even more gears.

[pepsi71ocean]

7 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

Thanks for the feed back, that's why I am here. I only want to do something once and if it ain't broke I don't fix it. However, I don't even listen to my stereo, it is all about the engine/truck. If I hear a strange noise I am all over it. My truck is a work truck and needs to always be ready for a load. I stagger my maintenance so it is only down a few hours. I have 326k miles on both Dodge trucks, (each), never walked yet....now my Ford....yup, several times

 

So I take it you use it for work? Do you do hot shot or something that requires it to always be ready?

 

To me I've equated it to the cost of doing business, since once you leave the VP era your maintenance and cost cycles go up indefinitely.

 

7 hours ago, dripley said:

I figured I would try a higher popped set after the head gasket and see.

 

I'm really interested in you find out with that. I'm working on an injector pop pressure write up.

 

7 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

 

Thanks for your experience, I am not into smoke/fuel going out the tail pipe. The RV's have been great so I will go back to them. I am totally happy with 400 hp, so far.....when a new turbo comes,  might get a small bug again

 

Thanks for the lesson, I really don't want drive around the smoke either. When you are loaded all the time it is a pain and even with 6 gears it causes delayed acceleration and now you need even more gears.

 

See that is the other issue, I didn't have much of a choice in the matter, granted I don't like smoke but NJ has been cracking down on smoke now to where you have just under 3 seconds to clean up that tail pipe or else.  At the time I was trying to find a way around tossing the smarty. Ironically the gamble paid off and currently I'm smoke free.  Any type of injectors you buy with an edge or a smarty will have smoke issues if you go much over 40-50hp. Unless your ready to drop for a quad. 

 

 

Now I chose 320(was set to 322) because I was shooting in the dark based on a quad thread that @Me78569 had going. Granted going forward I want to see how long it takes before the smoke issues come back. But going from 300BAR to 284BAT, on 33,000 miles I think that 320BAR should drop me to 300BAR in 30,000 Miles and another 30,000 to get to 280-286 that I was seeing.

 

If you needed to you can always order a new set and get them set to 320bar, and then swap them if your issue is time related, and not money related. It maybe better to get new nozzles and pintles while your at it.

Edited February 5, 2019 by pepsi71ocean

[NIsaacs]

2 hours ago, pepsi71ocean said:

 

So I take it you use it for work? Do you do hot shot or something that requires it to always be ready?

 

 

Yes, most of the hauls are generated by me, very little custom hauling except for my sons. I am in the fertilizer (manure) business. I haul it in, process it and haul it out. Also some logs/firewood, wood chips, cinders and commercial compost. I bought my last dump trailer in February last year and have never unhooked it except for greasing the ball. Summers are busy but winters are slow. I am retired so it helps my fixed income and keeps me active.

 

Tub grinder and tractor to run it.

 

 

[Shainer]

Question for the guys that have a Quad and suspected weak pop off pressures.  So here is my deal.  I have DAP 7x.095 aftermarket injectors.  I estimate I have maybe 100k miles on them.  Frankly I've been a little suspect of their performance from day one.  I noticed my idle RPM's have been trending upward.  Last few years I noticed idle hovering around 850.  I just took a look my idle RPM's over the past few days and now it settles in at around 870.  Any time I try to cruise at around 1000-1100 RPM I experience what might best be described as surging (manual trans with ceramic/kevlar clutch).  Life is busy so I just put up with it, except now it seems to be getting worse.  You know how it is, not bad enough to deal with... until it is.  So now I'm determined to improve this situation I was thinking about the low RPM cruise surge condition.  Get on my old forums and poke around, initially thinking it may be IP related.  Then I find this thread, and it got me thinking it could be one or more injectors are popping early causing uneven combustion spikes.  The 1000-1100 RPM range is kind of a resonant frequency for the condition.  Then I see you guys reporting on idle engine load.  Something I never paid any attention to.  The past few days when idle is sitting in that 870 range my engine load reports 0-5%.  1-4% being the norm.  I honestly would have figured that to be a normal range... but maybe it isn't?  Does what I describe sound like low pop pressure?  I performed a compression test a few years back.  Don't remember the numbers but do remember there was no more than a 5% deviation.  I think I have my injection timing cranked higher than I expected too.  Maybe capped at 20-21 degrees, not a hint of rattle.

Any thoughts are appreciated.  

 

[pepsi71ocean]

@Shainer Sounds like it alright. My truck used to idle in the 870-900 rpm range, and the idle was cyclic. I can't remember about the low throttle/rpm operation, but I do know that you could feel a vibration on my truck in that 1,100 range.

 

Mike had to advance his timing to a wicked number just to keep his truck happy. I do believe he said elsewhere that the more timing required the lower the pop pressure, the higher the pop pressure the more you can retard the timing.

Edited February 14, 2019 by pepsi71ocean

[Dieselfuture]

7 hours ago, Shainer said:

 I have DAP 7x.095 aftermarket injectors.  I estimate I have maybe 100k miles on them.

Are they vco or sac, at 100k they will definitely be low on pop especially if you didn’t ask dap to set them higher from the start. If it was me I would repoop them to 320 and make sure flow is still good. I was very surprised when I put it in my 7x10 vco 320 bar in, smooth idle and no smoke at all. I just wish they wouldn't settle that fast.