Pepsi's modified 1999 Long Term Injector study.

[pepsi71ocean]

Hey Guys, as you know I'm one of a few guys running a modified truck around here with larger injectors popped to 322BAR. So far the truck is running 100HP injectors a Dynamic Valve Body, and a Smarty. Current Smarty Settings are SW#7 TM3, T3,D4. The truck runs fairly well, and there is no smoke unless you really try. Even so its a light haze when passing.

 

Ive played with the Timing and TM settings, and can say both have caused stalling issues at varying temperatures. However the stalling is alleviated significantly when you put the truck into Reverse for 30 seconds, then drop it into gear. 

 

I have over 2,000 miles now under my belt with these injectors, and have determined that depending on what settings you have on the smarrty it also effects when the truck won't start due to cold temperatures. On the current settings the truck will not start at about 22F without grid heaters. It will crank over and miss like its got air in the fuel. However 30 seconds with the grids and it fires right up.

[JAG1]

On 2/22/2020 at 7:02 PM, pepsi71ocean said:

 

 

Ive played with the Timing and TM settings, and can say both have caused stalling issues at varying temperatures. However the stalling is alleviated significantly when you put the truck into Reverse for 30 seconds, then drop it into gear. 

 

 

So the stalling is related to both, using more fuel than supplied at sudden idle and the transmission modifications being that there is less slippage to the torque convertor? Is that right?

[pepsi71ocean]

7 hours ago, JAG1 said:

So the stalling is related to both, using more fuel than supplied at sudden idle and the transmission modifications being that there is less slippage to the torque convertor? Is that right?

 

I think it's two fold

 

1.

It is really bizarre. Stalling on SW7 TM3, T4, D4 is not anywhere near as bad as SW7 TM3, T3, D4.

 

The change in engine note from SW5 to SW7 on T4 is noticeable, but I can't figure out why the stalling is less.

 

I know that the truck on SW7 T4, produces more smoke when standing on it, and I believe that I'll move back to SW5, with the timing on 4, because the egt's and boost are much lower running down the road then compared to SW7.

 

However, smoke is non existent with the injectors at 322bar. I have no smoke at all, no coal, sometimes if i hammer it in 4th it is a light grey haze, but nothing like coal rolling, and you have to try.

 

Even at idle in Drive (like at a traffic light), there is almost 100F difference between T3 and T4 on the pyrometer. Just weird.

 

And the talking heads will never understand how this happens because even thought i wrote the article and @Me78569 did his data logging, well never get what changes between T3 and T4, if the truck is at an idle(or coming off idle)

 

2.

The tighter torque converter will let the truck stall in Drive, but not reverse. Ive had it start up and not stall going into reverse from Park on my truck. However going from Park to Drive at 20F will result in a stall.

 

Exception is if I put it into reverse for 30 seconds and hold my foot on the brake, then put it into drive. No stalling then.

Edited February 25, 2020 by pepsi71ocean

[JAG1]

It's as if reverse gets fluids flowing enough so it won't stall. You might ask Dynamic if there is a different fluid that will help or if he has another idea to help with this problem. I like his work.

 

BTW I drove IBMobile truck with the new Dynamic trans. Sheebees that thing puts the power to the road.... almost got to stand on it to get it slow down in idle.

Edited February 26, 2020 by JAG1

[pepsi71ocean]

@Dynamic Any ideas as to why this is?

 

Granted my truck doesn't stall when warm, or after its had 30 seconds in reverse, which is totally different from that goofball DTT VB that stalled 7/10 times going into gear regardless of temperature haha.

[Dynamic]

What torque converter are you using? Stall speed?

 

VP44 trucks are notorious for stalling cold at times, especially with a stall speed that's too low. The valve body is really not going to make a difference. "In gear" is in gear, regardless of line pressure. Putting it in Reverse for 30 seconds is likely just warming up the fluid a bit.

[Threadzy]

Interesting. DAP is building me some 7x.010 VCO’s set at 325 bar. The coldest time of the year here is December and January. It might drop into the 20’s. I’m hoping by then they’ll settle down to 310-315 bar causing no issues. I’m running a Quadzilla V2. 

[pepsi71ocean]

13 minutes ago, Threadzy said:

Interesting. DAP is building me some 7x.010 VCO’s set at 325 bar. The coldest time of the year here is December and January. It might drop into the 20’s. I’m hoping by then they’ll settle down to 310-315 bar causing no issues. I’m running a Quadzilla V2. 

 

I've started it up without grid heaters down to 22f and then it wouldn't start. 

 

However with the grid heaters hooked up its started up to 15f without issue. That's the coldest we have had this winter. 

55 minutes ago, Dynamic said:

What torque converter are you using? Stall speed?

 

VP44 trucks are notorious for stalling cold at times, especially with a stall speed that's too low. The valve body is really not going to make a difference. "In gear" is in gear, regardless of line pressure. Putting it in Reverse for 30 seconds is likely just warming up the fluid a bit.

 

I'm unsure as to what the stall speed is.

 

That is why I'm curious about the path of the fluid thought the valve body.  It's ironic that it's only upon start up that it does it. And only in drive. Not reverse.

 

But putting it into reverse for 40 seconds cures it for good and I can drop it into drive and have no issues.

 

I love this new valve body

[Evan]

Mines stalled  few times when injectors were new.

I'm running 7x009 sw7 4 3 2

[Mopar1973Man]

21 hours ago, Threadzy said:

Interesting. DAP is building me some 7x.010 VCO’s set at 325 bar. The coldest time of the year here is December and January. It might drop into the 20’s. I’m hoping by then they’ll settle down to 310-315 bar causing no issues. I’m running a Quadzilla V2. 

 

I'm running 7 x 0.010 @ 320 bar no issues all the way to minus temperatures. Starts very easy at +25*F and above without grid heaters. Last tank I got 21.25 MPG. I'm going to be rolling with the Cummins this morning back to Weiser, ID and then on to Nampa, ID to hit Eileen's storage. 

[Dynamic]

The fluid path to (and through) the converter is the same in forward and reverse. There is quite a bit more line pressure in reverse that in forward, but the charge to the converter is regulated at about 130 psi.

 

As far a whether you're in forward or reverse, either one is going to provide a stationary input shaft for the turbine to drive against, whether it be from the forward clutch on and the low roller holding (forward), or the direct and L/R band on (reverse). The converter doesn't know the difference.

 

The reason I asked about stall speed is that some guys (and some companies) can really get carried away with the low stall thing. I've seen guys running 500, 600 even 700 rpm below stock stall. There are VERY few scenarios where a stall speed that low would be a positive thing. It just makes a horribly lazy setup down low, and starts to introduce problems like stalling when cold. You can fight some particularly messy battles with stall speed on the P-pumps (12 valves) and VP44's (24 valve 2nd Gens). The common rails (3rd Gen) are much more forgiving, but still suffer with such a tight converter.

[Mopar1973Man]

13 minutes ago, Dynamic said:

The reason I asked about stall speed is that some guys (and some companies) can really get carried away with the low stall thing. I've seen guys running 500, 600 even 700 rpm below stock stall. There are VERY few scenarios where a stall speed that low would be a positive thing.

 

Which coupled with Smarty tuner that tune is based on throttle position so this will change the TV cable position also. Just increasing TQ Management will cause the TV cable to be lower and shift differently. This is why when you change Smarty TQ setting  or Smarty tunes the shift on the transmission will be different. 

[Evan]

 

Quad and injectors will also cause truck to drive down the rd more easily requiring less throttle pedal. Of wich is unrelated to the stalling 

 

[Threadzy]

3 hours ago, Evan said:

 

Quad and injectors will also cause truck to drive down the rd more easily requiring less throttle pedal. Of wich is unrelated to the stalling 

 

If you tune it that way yes. When I first got my Quad my fuel curve started at 86% I believe. After replacing my cracked exhaust manifold and installing the 4” MBRP exhaust I’m starting out at 93% and maxing out at 133%. Truck takes off much better and pulls much harder with no black smoke at all. Probably could try and add more on the big end but I’m just going to wait till my 7X.010’s show up. I’ll have to reprogram the whole fuel curve and probably make tweaks to the timing curve since they’ll be set at 325 bar.  Once I retuned I had to take out slack on the tv cable. It would bounce off the rev limiter in first gear. Now it shifts at about 2,900-3,000 rpms as per Dynamics instructions. 

[Evan]

That's spec for 47re wide open shift.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Evan

[Threadzy]

3 minutes ago, Evan said:

That's spec for 47re wide open shift.

 

That's just how it should be tuned regardless of modifications don to truck. This ensures that under pedal transmission is making near the max pressure that it can.

To loose a TV and transmission makes less pressure possibly slipping and causing shorter lifespan. 

 

I feel mike led this topick a stray and I guess I helped 

 

 

Yes I understand that. My point was in regards to the quad and throttle input. I guess I should have worded it better. 

[pepsi71ocean]

On 2/27/2020 at 10:29 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Which coupled with Smarty tuner that tune is based on throttle position so this will change the TV cable position also. Just increasing TQ Management will cause the TV cable to be lower and shift differently. This is why when you change Smarty TQ setting  or Smarty tunes the shift on the transmission will be different. 

 

Irony is that I don't believe that the stalling issue is related so much to the smarty, because the truck is theoritically at idle validation.

 

Now with that being said, the truck did stall quite a bit this week. And of course I lost reverse and neutral.

 

I can go from P to R and have Reverse. If I go P-N-R I get nothing. If I go from P-N-D-N it stays in drive.

 

I spoke to dynamic and he thinks that it is a manual valve, which makes sense. 

 

I downed the truck at 2,331 miles after pressing it into service. I plan to drop the valve body tomorrow am, and look at it thoroughly. I'm going to also pull the spare rooster comb from my spare valve body and install it into the Dodge. 

 

I'm hoping that what ever is wrong is something stupid. 

 

I'll keep everyone posted.

[Evan]

That's weird. 

Does converter still lock in 2nd gear.?I don't know how dynamic blocks the port. That's where my mind goes to a fluid passage not mechanical lever. To me if it was the rooster or detent ball youd either have it or not.

Whatever is going on you need to split the valve body if only so I can see how the ports blocked. Haha

However I doubt its moved since the plate holds it or possibly does 

Curious what your idle egt temps are.  My gauge doesn't start till 400, idling in gear or neutral gauge isnt registering.

 

Iv also not noticed much difference between  sw7 and 9 in smoke or temp.

 

But changing tm from  3-4 is pretty drastic in smoke but temps stay the same or so close I can't really see a difference. Could be my temp gauge isnt reading as fine as yours.

 

I can change between sw7 and nine. Same 3 3 2 settings and have to really look for the change. Actually think smoke may be slightly less on 9 but transmission shifts virtually the same.

Bump tm to 4 and trans shifts 100-200 rpm sooner with more smoke.

 

I've never stalled truck with smarty my injectors have probly close to 80k on them. Only stalled when they were new with factory tune.

 

To me your stalling would be from the 320 injectors and transmission not always going where selected is just  side weirdness.

 

You've completely lost reverse and neutral?

Edited March 8, 2020 by Evan

[pepsi71ocean]

On 3/8/2020 at 12:10 PM, Evan said:

That's weird. 

Does converter still lock in 2nd gear.?I don't know how dynamic blocks the port. That's where my mind goes to a fluid passage not mechanical lever. To me if it was the rooster or detent ball youd either have it or not.

Whatever is going on you need to split the valve body if only so I can see how the ports blocked. Haha

However I doubt its moved since the plate holds it or possibly does 

 

I haven't a clue how the lock up works with the valve body, maybe @Dynamic could explain how that works.

 

Quote

Curious what your idle egt temps are.  My gauge doesn't start till 400, idling in gear or neutral gauge isnt registering.

 

In park or neutral about 300*, In drive or reverse about 450*

 

Quote

Iv also not noticed much difference between  sw7 and 9 in smoke or temp.

 

The difference is with the position of accelerator pedal. The higher the sw the faster the fueling comes on. Even with the higher popped injectors, running SW9 I can't run Timing on 4, Even with a higher TM# this still effects spool up. However, backing timing to 2 on SW9, with TM 5 my truck seems to spool faster.

 

Quote

But changing tm from  3-4 is pretty drastic in smoke but temps stay the same or so close I can't really see a difference. Could be my temp gauge isnt reading as fine as yours.

 

The only difference I see is in low boost driving and idling. I can see 550* on TM 4 vs 450 on TM3, however changing the Timing also seems to effect this.

 

Quote

I can change between sw7 and nine. Same 3 3 2 settings and have to really look for the change. Actually think smoke may be slightly less on 9 but transmission shifts virtually the same.

 

Smoke will be less on SW9 with the timing on 3. Depending on the size of the injectors you may or may not see the lag.

 

Quote

Bump tm to 4 and trans shifts 100-200 rpm sooner with more smoke.

 

That's because the TM changes the fueling, not the SW#

 

Quote

I've never stalled truck with smarty my injectors have probably close to 80k on them. Only stalled when they were new with factory tune.

 

My truck's stalling issues im 90% sure were valve body related to my DTT transmission. As the stalling is nowhere nearly as bad with the Dynamic VB in it.

 

Quote

To me your stalling would be from the 320 injectors and transmission not always going where selected is just  side weirdness.

 

Ironically the stalling didnt' change with the higher popped injectors, the stalling was a little less with the DTT valve body, but the dynamic valve body reduced the stalling allot.

 

Quote

You've completely lost reverse and neutral?

 

Irony has it that the shift linkage came undone on the rooster comb, got knows how long that has been going on for. But I'm working on fixing it this week.

 

 

I'll add some photos, My mistake is that I blasted and painted the levers, and I suspect that what I thought was tight, was not tight. And the linkages and stuff came loose. I have to diagnose what the root cause is.

Edited March 10, 2020 by pepsi71ocean

[Evan]

There's a fluid port inside the valve body that needs to be locked for the switch to be able to lock 2nd gear. 

Yours may or may not have the port blocked