Nv4500 getting harder to get into gear

[Doubletrouble]

 Lately I have noticed my 5 speed is getting harder to get into gear. I can feel the shifter moving between the gates like normal but then try to pull it into gear (mainly 2nd or reverse when stopped) it doesn't seem to want to go unless I press the clutch pedal firmly against the floorboard. It wasn't like that before, she used to slide into gear just fine. 

 With a hydraulic clutch I'm assuming there is no adjustment? Is there a way I can check anything? Any other ideas?

 Thanks!

[Dieselfuture]

Maybe hydraulics getting old and bleeding by internally sucking some air in, how old are hydraulics. Could be something wore internally, like synchros or shift forks 

[Doubletrouble]

 Not sure if the age of the hydraulics, I would assume OEM? The syncros have went for 3rd gear already, I've just been "floating" into 3rd to avoid grinding it up.

 Just seems strange it came on somewhat suddenly. I will have to check the hydraulic slave somehow. I did have to top off the reservoir once, maybe it leaked and then stopped? Haven't added anything since.

 Truck only has 151k on it, hope the shift forks aren't wore yet. Idk.

[Dieselfuture]

Put it in gear and keep holding the clutch in see what happens in few minutes, I almost ran into a wall when my slave started bleeding internally at 135k ml. Couldn't tell it was going bad driving, because I never have the clutch in very long. I was at work in garage and someone was talking to me while I had it in gear, about 30 seconds later truck started to move forward, I barely yanked it out of gear in time.

[Doubletrouble]

I'll have to try that. 

 Is there an inspection cover to take a look at the clutch. I've been under there but was really looking at that at the time.

[01_Cummins_4x4]

About the only way to see the clutch, is by removing the slave cylinder and put a remote camera through the hole, but you still might not get to see the clutch disk very much.

[dripley]

Mine failed with the fluid leaking by in the master cylinder 10 years or so ago. A new master fixed it then. A few months back I started having some trouble getting mine in gear with out jamming into the floor. I did not notice it creeping like the first one when it failed but never sat and held it to see if it would. I convinced myself that it was another master going bad and replaced it. Luck was on my side this time and it helped alot. It can be either. Part of my problem is the tranny does need refresh to get back a 100% though. This one has about 325k on it.

Edited April 3, 2021 by dripley

[Tractorman]

8 hours ago, Doubletrouble said:

Truck only has 151k on it,

 

The truck may only have 151,000 miles on it, but it also has almost 20 years.  Time takes a toll.  I am still running the original hydraulics at 351,000 miles, but I lost the OEM pilot bearing at 297,000 miles.  A pilot bearing that is dragging will display the symptoms you are describing.

 

- John

[wil440]

Quickly pump the clutch up then see what it goes into gear like, 2 or 3 quick pumps, hold pedal down and try and put it in gear, if it's air in the system it will be compressed and it should make a difference on how it goes into gear, pedal will also come up a bit and be harder just the same as brakes

[Mopar1973Man]

Just do both the master and slave cylinders for the clutch. Still to this day I prefer doing the bleeding myself than buying a pre-bled system that is a 50/50 hit or miss if it will work out of the box. I've seen brand new hydraulics all pre-bled not work at all because air made it back inside the system from the reservoir while shipping and handling of the product. Don't get me wrong the clutch I installed in the 2006 was a pre-bled system from Valair it worked out of the box. The part I hate is getting the pedal throw adjusted right. Where stock systems do not require any adjustment.

 

Be aware adjustable hydraulics is very easy to hyper-extend the throw bearing past the pressure plate. It can do serious damage and you'll be replacing that same clutch over. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Mopar1973Man

[wil440]

I really don't see the point throwing a master cyl and slave cyl  on until proven thats the problem hence pumping the clutch up to test, if it does pump up then consider a master and slave, if it doesn't make the slightest difference then  it's something else

As tractorman said it could be the pilot bearing, also bad syncros or even worn bearings or a bad dragging clutch

I don't have a manual truck but I've built enough 12 and 16 speed Gardner, Fuller and Volvo boxes 

[Doubletrouble]

 I will try to pump it up and see if that changes anything. Holding it down to see if it bled off did nothing. It didn't creep or anything so I don't believe it's leaking. 

[Doubletrouble]

 I tried pumping it up and that didn't help anything either. I did look under the dash and it seems to show some signs of leaking. The master also seems to move slightly when I push in the pedal. I'm not sure yet what is going on here, I know that something is different from before. Just have to get to the bottom of it.

[wil440]

Don't forget brake/clutch fluid will not cause or encourage rust really and if pumping the pedal and then going for the gear straight away with the pedal STILL down after the last pump then you're pretty safe to say hydraulics are ok,, only other test I could think of for hyds is driving and do the same thing, couple of quick pumps and then shift 

maybe another test is drain the box and fill with something thicker, this may change how the syncros grab but just a test, drain original oil out and save it if it's ok, I only say this as I have lots of different oils around and I was a Caterpillar field service engineer until a couple of years ago...... test, test, check, check and again and again big deal on first fix every time, sorry but it's engrained 

[Doubletrouble]

 Would the bushings for the clutch/brake pedal cause this sort of issue? I have noticed that when I press the clutch I can feel the brake pedal push back if that makes sense.

[Mopar1973Man]

Tell tale signs.

 

When you come to a stop and your holding the clutch in and then if after a period of time and the truck starts creeping the hydraulics are bleeding out. I've seen this. Another is if you just press the clutch and difficult to shift the hydraulics could be sucking air in and compressing then the clutch with drag slightly causing a hard shift. Typically in all gears, but not always. Like when my pilot bearing fell out it was hard in all gears till the main shaft was ruined then it took 5th gear with it. 

[Doubletrouble]

 It's only difficult when the truck is stopped. Like when shifting into 2nd or reverse. Once moving it shifts into 3rd, 4th and 5th fine as I accelerate.

 

[Mopar1973Man]

Something is dragging in the clutch hence why its difficult to shift from a stop. 

 

Even like my last failure was similar. The 2nd or Reverse required shifting like 3rd first and then back to 2nd helped. In my case the pilot bearing fell out on to the input shaft. This bit of misalignment would cause the friction disc to drag some. Then after a time the input shaft wore on the main shaft tip from the lack of pilot bearing. Last on it finally took 5th gear with it as it broke the teeth off the smaller gear eating the larger gear. 

 

Suggestion replace the hydraulics both master and slave. If no improvement after this, I would pull the transmission and check the clutch assembly as much as no one likes to do it. 

[wil440]

1 hour ago, Doubletrouble said:

 It's only difficult when the truck is stopped. Like when shifting into 2nd or reverse. Once moving it shifts into 3rd, 4th and 5th fine as I accelerate.

 

what's it shift like into all gears from a stop ?

If it is clutch related which it could well be I'd expect certainly 1st to be a problem and all gears ought to not feel right, thing is though once a gear is got (stopped) you may well find it will actually go into all the others a little better so skews the test, me I'd be testing all gears sort of seperate, as in test 1st, do something with it  and then test 2nd tomorrow and so on

Is there anything in the oil ? as in metal flake, is it time for an oil change ? Is the rear crank seal leaking (this can swell clutch material, usually slips though) Also as Mike says if the slave is leaking...... if it's going onto clutch this could cause drag

have you tried double clutching ?? which is pump pedal and grab your problem gear/gears

Shame there is no inspection plate/bung/bolt hole

[Doubletrouble]

 There is a small gap I guess I'd call it where you can see the teeth of the flywheel. It looks dry. I would think that would get soaked in oil as well if there was a main seal leak. I will try looking at the bushings a little closer. Probably replace the clutch master and slave and see where that goes. I will pull the trans if needed after that. 

 On a side note, how does one check the fluid and level on the nv4500. I'm sure I could search it but since I'm here......lol