Replacing head gasket

[Royal Squire]

I realize it’s late in the game for this but I know a professional engine builder who never would install a new cylinder head in this day and age without completely disassembling and having everything checked (deck surface, valves and seats, guides, springs etc). Work can be really shoddy even on new big name high performance heads. 
Hope you can find your issues without pulling the head. 

[Tex_usa]

@IBMobile I am getting fuel to the injectors on 4,5, and 6 but I do not know how much as I am having to crank the engine.

 

@Tractorman From what I can tell it was turning over evenly. I compared it to other trucks starting on a cold day to see if I heard a difference. I will try the ether again.

 

@wil440When I replaceed the injectors I also got new feeder tubes as well. I have not checked to see if the injection lines have anything in them so this may also be a good thing to do.

 

When I did the head swap I did have the vp44 open for 3 days while I was working on the truck. This goes for the injection lines as well. Maybe somehow something got lodged in the lines or port of the vp44?

 

I'm really struggling with this and am close to just taking it somewhere as I am at a loss of what to do.

 

I appreciate all the help yall have given!

@Royal Squire I'm getting a sinking feeling that it is something to do with the head. There were some things that were not exactly the same as the stock head. Like the space to be able to get the rear push rods in without drilling into the cab of the truck.

 

The good news is there is a shop that will rebiuld for around $7k including removing the engine. @Royal Squire let me know if this is about right?

 

I've been saving all this time as I was afraid it would come down to this.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Tex_usa

[Tractorman]

2 hours ago, Tex_usa said:

 From what I can tell it was turning over evenly. I compared it to other trucks starting on a cold day to see if I heard a difference. I will try the ether again

 

This isn't the answer I was looking for.  The term "turning over" usually refers to the starter motor cranking the engine over.  What I want to know is when you injected ether and the engine started running, did it run smoothly and evenly on all cylinders?  This observation is important.  If it did run smoothly and evenly on all cylinders, then you do not have a problem with the head.  If it did not run smoothly and evenly, and sounded like your description of how your engine is idling now, then you do have a problem with the head.

 

- John

[wil440]

Tractor man's question on how it runs on either will prove if the head is good 

You would expect it to run on all 6 if the head is OK.

If it does run on 6 you have a fuel problem, I would then remove injector lines and check fuel delivery then lines then injectors for pop pressure,  I take it engine oil level is not rising? 

You also would benefit from someone else doing the cranking so you can be checking stuff 

[Tex_usa]

@Tractorman @wil440 This makes so much sense! Thank you so much! I will try and run this test this weekend. I knew I needed another head to think outside the box I've been banging mine into lol 😆 

 

On another note is there any better type of ether to get? (I know it's really bad for the engine) Or is it all just generally bad for it so just go and get whatever auto zone has in stock?

[Tractorman]

23 minutes ago, Tex_usa said:

On another note is there any better type of ether to get? (I know it's really bad for the engine)

 

Ether is only bad for an engine when used improperly.  This is why I recommend sliding the intercooler boot back at the air intake connection on the driver side of the engine.  The ether spray will atomize and quickly get to the cylinders in a vapor state.   Be sure to disable the VP44 injection pump by pulling the fuel pump relay in the PDC before you do the ether test.  You do not want fuel being injected when performing the ether test - it would skew the results.  Don't forget to disable the grid heaters, as well.

 

Let us know the results.

 

@wil440, thank you for your assistance.

 

- John

Edited June 14, 2022 by Tractorman

[wil440]

I find when struggling to figure out a problem it's often better to totally forget what you have previously done and start again right at the beginning. 

Here would be my work through list

1. Check if it is fuel or mechanical ( tractormans either Check)

2. If it is fuel Check fuel delivery at each outlet of vp then work towards injectors 

3 if its not fuel ie still runs on 3 on either pull rocker cover and check pushrod are still where they should be in the followers and everything is as it should be 

[wil440]

On 6/14/2022 at 7:02 AM, Tractorman said:

@wil440, thank you for your assistance.

No problem John

Back home now so on laptop instead of mobile phone 

[Tex_usa]

Ok guys I figured I would follow up on this in case anyone else like me hates when an answer is left out on a thread 😂.

It has been 4 months and I took the truck to a cummins rebiuld shop as I was stumped.

They went over everything that that I did troubleshooting wise and have confirmed that there is compression in all 6 cylinders, checked the cylinders with a scope and nothing was left in them, Checked timing and rocker arms, checked the injectors, and confirmed the hot wire test on the vp44.

Right now they are as stumped as I am on it and said that there is only 2 other things to check and that is make sure the cam shaft is lined up correctly (I do not see how this could get moved though with only replacing the head) and if that is correct then it HAS to be the vp44.

 

Let me know what yall think about this but I'm my mind there is nothing else that could be causing this at this point.

 

Edit: there is one other thing and that is the injector lines. I have never heard of them getting clogged before but still allowing some fuel through but I guess there is a first for everything.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Tex_usa

[Mopar1973Man]

VP44 could be bad, doesn't have to throw codes to be bad either. If compression is there and the only thing left is being able to inject fuel. 

[LorenS]

1 hour ago, Tex_usa said:

Edit: there is one other thing and that is the injector lines. I have never heard of them getting clogged before but still allowing some fuel through but I guess there is a first for everything.

As easy as this is to check, I would do this first.  Remove line, block backwards with your solvent of choice (brake cleaner, etc.), blow backwards with compressed air.  Preferably blow backwards into a clean rag so you can see if something comes out.  But one wonders if there was the possibility of trash in the lines, how much of it has made its way to the injectors?  They may have been serviced/cleaned before, but may be clogged again if more trash broke loose from the line.

[JAG1]

Just a thought worth half of a cent because I have never pulled and replaced any engine head but, on my 01 when purchased at 190,000 miles the in tank screens were 2/3  clogged. Could it be that your getting some fuel, just enough to think it's okay but, not enough to keep the truck running?? I also wonder about a rare problem, I've heard, of a clogged tank vent and what confusing results could be if both these conditions existed together. Just a shot in the dark.

Edited November 11, 2022 by JAG1

[Tex_usa]

Ok finally got an update on the truck.

The shop went ahead and replaced the injection pump and says it is running 100% better but still has an issue.

I'm not quite sure what that means lol but for anyone else out there it is very possible to have a bad vp44 and still starts and runs on only 3 injectors.

 

As far as the other issue they are going to hot wire test the new vp44 since it is now running better it seems to point that something got shorted out when I pulled the head so it could have also messed up my ecm or programmer.

 

Other than this the only other thing I can think of is the injection lines being clogged.

[Mopar1973Man]

1 hour ago, Tex_usa said:

I'm not quite sure what that means lol but for anyone else out there it is very possible to have a bad vp44 and still starts and runs on only 3 injectors.

Kind of impossible for the VP44 only fire on 3 injectors being the rotor is going to deliver to all line equally as the distributor turns. It more possible for bad injectors to have issues (cracked nozzles, low pop pressure, etc) or partial plugged crossover tubes. Yes I know that the Cummins high idle runs on 3 cylinders but every other in the firing order. (1, 5, 3, 6, 2, 4) <- Red Cylinder number fire.

 

Did anyone do a compression test afterwards to see if there is any compression problems. I've seen a past member having a cracked piston and changed the head thinking it would fix the problem but the piston was cracked. A single piston with a crack can foul the compression and make a miss but pass a blowby test. This why a compression test is needed to test each cylinder seperately.

[Tex_usa]

I ran a compression test and the shop did as well to make sure I did not miss anything and both came back ok.

 

I replaced all the crossover tubes and injectors.

 

And it was only running on 1, 5, 3.

I tested this by losening the fuel lines to the injectors while the truck was running and the back 3 did not matter or change the sound of the engine but as soon as I losened any one of the front 3 it would die.

 

The only other thing that I can think of now that the vp44 has been replaced is that the fuel lines are clogged from the vp44 to the cross over tubes?

 

Either this or there is an electrical issue.

 

Before I pulled the head the truck ran fine.

When it was off I checked for any visible issues in the pistons so unless something made it into the piston and then messed it up after I put the new head on AND cannot be detected by a pressure test.

I do not see how it could be an internal engine issue.

 

But..... crazier things have occurred in my lifetime I thought I'd never see 😂

[Tractorman]

5 hours ago, Tex_usa said:

And it was only running on 1, 5, 3.

I tested this by losening the fuel lines to the injectors while the truck was running and the back 3 did not matter or change the sound of the engine but as soon as I losened any one of the front 3 it would die.

 

Something doesn't quite make sense here.  The cylinders are numbered 1 through 6 with #1 being the front.  The firing order is 1,5,3,6,2,4.  If you are saying that the the three rear cylinders are not firing, that would be 4,5 and 6 are not firing and the engine us running on 1,2 and 3.

 

Can you clarify?

 

- John

 

 

On 11/11/2022 at 6:41 AM, Tex_usa said:

took the truck to a cummins rebiuld shop as I was stumped.

They went over everything that that I did troubleshooting wise and have confirmed that there is compression in all 6 cylinders, checked the cylinders with a scope and nothing was left in them, Checked timing and rocker arms, checked the injectors, and confirmed the hot wire test on the vp44.

 

You posted the above on November 11.  What does "confirmed the hot wire test on the vp44" mean?  Does this mean that the engine idled smoothly on all six cylinders?  If so, this would mean that there is no mechanical problem and all of the other tests were unnecessary.  If the statement means something else, then we need to know what it means.  

 

- John

[Tex_usa]

Sorry for the confusion.

The cylinders working were 1, 2, and 3 😁 

 

Confirming the hot wire test with the old vp44 meaning the same 3 cylinders firing when wired directly to the battery.

 

So far I have not heard back from the shop but it's Christmas so I probably will not bug them till after.

[Tex_usa]

Ok got an update over this.

 

I went ahead and had the shop pull the head and send it to a machine shop.

The machine shop did not see anything drastically wrong with the head other than some crummy seats on it.

 

The shop also checked the lower block and it is within spec flat wise and the cylinders look good.

 

The shop did notice the crossover tubes though and sent me this picture.

They said 3 of the tubes show the odd ware on them while 3 of them (the one on the right) look correct.

 

After looking over your injector replacement process I cannot remember if I tightened down the injectors first or the connector tube so I am going to have the shop dry fit the back 3 while the head is still off the truck.

 

My question is, since this is a Chinese new head could it be that the connector tube hole is messed up and not allowing the connector tube to seat properly with the injectors?

[Tractorman]

Looking for "cause and effect" here.  Did the cross-over tubes with a good seating pattern match up with the cylinders that were firing?  Hopefully, the shop kept track of which injectors and cross-over tubes came out of which cylinders.

 

- John

[LorenS]

1 hour ago, Tex_usa said:

could it be that the connector tube hole is messed up and not allowing the connector tube to seat properly with the injectors

The short answer is yes, but I wouldn't spend much time and/or money investigating that scenario before installing everything again and torqueing down in the correct order.