Help; narrowing down on upgrades.

[DownHomeDiesel]

I think I'm finally ready to ask these questions.  I have decided to upgrade my 24v with a quadzilla adrenaline, injectors, compound turbo, and an exhaust brake.  I am not interested in rolling coal. I do not race but I do tow.  I like reliability and longevity.  My NV4500 has a 450hp clutch.  And I'm installing a new lift pump and lines.

 

I'd like suggestions on compound setup and which injectors to match them with.  I initially planned to build my own setup but now I'm leaning to buying a kit.  I feel like I want to be in that 350-425hp area.  If possible I'd like to keep air filter in place (corner of passenger cowl) but it isnt a deal breaker.

 

Thanks for any input.

[AH64ID]

For that level of power you don't need twins, but they are beneficial if you often tow heavy above 6K feet. A good single can get you to 425 rwhp and still have good EGT's at elevation, even up to 8000 feet... it might just take a downshift on HOT summer days up high. 

[Mopar1973Man]

I'm close to 500 HP on my 2002 Dodge (The Beast).

 

• +150 HP injectors (7 x 0.010) popped at 320 bar
• Quadzilla Adrenaline (My own custom tune)
• Air Dog 150
• HX35/40 Hybrid Turbo (60/60/12)

The biggest thing to keeping the EGT's cool is a good tuner that allows for timing like Quadzilla and then proper final ratio to the ground. Like the Beast its gear to 3.69:1 to the ground. This is 245/75 R16 tires on 3.55 gear axle which produces this final ratio. It put me at 2k RPMs at 66 MPH. This truck maxed out at 27.2 MPG years ago. But Still able to reach 20-21 MPG with this set up.

 

On my 2006 Dodge now with 3.73 gears and stock 265/70 R17 tires I'm still at 3.73 final to the ground. This is about 2,100 at 65 MPH. Great for heavy trucks and still reaching 19-20 MPG.

 

I'm not in it for race either but for Efficiency and longevity. Well on the Beast I've just popped 2 head gaskets. First one was too much drive pressure most likely (high timing too). Then the second gasket OEM Cummins delaminated and blew out. (Defective gasket!).

[DownHomeDiesel]

On 8/10/2021 at 7:48 PM, AH64ID said:

For that level of power you don't need twins, but they are beneficial if you often tow heavy above 6K feet. A good single can get you to 425 rwhp and still have good EGT's at elevation, even up to 8000 feet... it might just take a downshift on HOT summer days up high. 

Thanks for the reply.  I understand I dont need the extra turbo to reach the hp goal.  I wanted them more for the characteristics I've been reading about.  Trying to be wise and weed out the big fish tails.  I was originally going to get a big turbo for free so I thought "why not?" But now I'm sort of stuck on the concept.

The hp goal isnt really the point.  I want it to tow well.  If I can run 500hp and keep good running qualities, efficiency, and longevity with good driving I'm all in.  My truck wears two hats.  It is more of a hunting rig in the fall/winter and a tows cows, hay, boats, construction supplies, etc in spring summer.

In looking at compounds it seems that for towing, not racing, that maybe the s400s are a bit much and I'd get better and quicker tow qualities from some slightly smaller stuff?  But the prices seem to very widely and I'm not good with spending extra thousands for something that is marginal.  And it seems like somewhere between 75 and 150hp injectors is where the magic balance is?

Mopar1973man I've been playing with tire sizes and the final drives.  I was glad to see you had some specific info on your results.  So far my results have made me want to go up to a 6 speed.  I feel that compounds would help me stretch my tire size a little bit and still get from 3rd to 4rth ok while towing.  Does that sound like foolishness?  I generally only tow with bigger tires during winter.  I run 33" tires in the spring/summer.  I'm currently looking for the right cab'chassis rear end to swap out my srw axle.

 

[Silverwolf2691]

Smaller turbo is your friend for towing. 500hp is easily achievable with 150s, a quadzilla, and a 62/65/12 or 62/68/12. Larger turbine wheel will help on the high rpm end. If you are stuck on compounds an s465 to maybe an 467.7 at most as your atmospheric turbo with a 62/65/12 s300 or smaller should work, but its a lot of money for not a lot of improved performance at this power level. Twins are usually used when you are trying to tow heavy with like 250+ injectors. You are running against lag and egt issues because you need an s366 or bigger technically to run that. Power Driven Diesel has a whole series of videos on YouTube about dynoing a set of turbos and seeing what they run like on the dyno including a lag test. Its very informative. Just remember that twins also have some drawbacks to go with those benefits. if they are not matched right, you might not ever be happy with them, until new hard parts are put on. They also can take some time to tune them to get wastegates working right, spool up happening when it should, etc.

 

This was my thread for help deciding on a turbo, still haven't, but my money tree hasn't sprouted yet. Might have a couple of nuggets of info for deciding on a turbo.

     

[AH64ID]

A 62/65/12 will not be able to support 500 rwhp while towing heavy, but it can support 500 rwhp on a street tune. 

 

To me a towing setup is one that lets you run WOT and not stare at the gauges ALL the time or on every little hill. 

 

I had to get above 6-7K feet, ambient temp dependent, on my 05 before I really even needed to glance at the gauges. Even at 8K feet I didn't have to watch them if I drove it correctly. That's what a towing setup should be.... that same setup would make over 550 rwhp when turned up and run safe street EGT's. 

 

If you have to watch your gauges like a hawk when you're towing then your setup is wrong for towing. 

 

Even with twins I usually don't recommend much more than 450 rwhp on a tow tune. The oiling and cooling system have a harder time keeping up when the sustained power gets into that range, as it's well over 500 at the crank. 

 

A small S300 over a small S400 would make a great set of towing twins for 400-450rwhp. For 350-400 a single is plenty, and for 375-425 it's a toss up as twins aren't cheap. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by AH64ID

[DownHomeDiesel]

2 hours ago, AH64ID said:

To me a towing setup is one that lets you run WOT and not stare at the gauges ALL the time or on every little hill. 

 

This is definitely part of what I'm wanting to reach.  I feel I'm having trouble asking the correct questions.  For me it isnt so much about a particular power level as much as I want the truck to pull strong and do it well.   I want to tune/set-up the truck with upgrades so that when it is happy it is also somewhere around that 400hp-ish area.  And I'd like to do it with a compound setup.  (BTW thanks for the list of cons and dose of reality.  I'll keep those in mind.)

 

Thanks for the replies!

So from my research I'm feeling the vibe for 150 hp injectors and there appears to be a lot of knowledge and experience here with that size.  Can I expect reasonable fuel mileage with 150s or will it really drop?

 

Would a small s400s work well with my HX35? And if so, is there a particular small s400s that would be highly recommended?  Side note:  I'm currently disappointed with how much time and rpm it takes to spool up my HX35. 

 

[AH64ID]

150's would be a good size on a VP truck with quad tuning. Tuning advancements have made bigger injectors better as you can adjust the fueling to match what you need. The larger injector allows for more fuel quicker, so it's a faster and better burn. 

 

Yes a small S400 would work with your HX35 but it will reduce the initial spool, but after a few psi it will increase it. The injectors will also help spool. At what rpm are you unhappy about the spool of the HX35? It's usually a fairly quick spooling turbo. 

[Mopar1973Man]

6 minutes ago, DownHomeDiesel said:

So from my research I'm feeling the vibe for 150 hp injectors and there appears to be a lot of knowledge and experience here with that size.  Can I expect reasonable fuel mileage with 150s or will it really drop?

 

Well I can give this much my last fill up I netted 17.58 MPG on my 2002 Dodge (The Beast). I've got the +150 Injectors but running a Quadzilla tuner. The key here is getting the optimal timing for you use. Like myself since I'm running 245's for tires my RPMs are up and the cruise for 65 MPH is right close to 2k RPMs. Now the next trick is to find the best cruise timing for your application. Good starting point would be 19 degrees at 2k RPMs. But this truck sits mostly and doesn't get driven but on the weekends. This last tank included hauling firewood out of the national forest. 

 

This is out side the 24V realm but... Just the changing of the 18 inch wheels off my 2006 Dodge and going back to stock steel wheels with 265/70 R17 tires gave nearly a full 4 MPG. Don't forget about rolling resistance and rotational mass. In this case dropping the extra mass and getting the final gearing close to 3.73 is very optimal for all Cummins. 

[DownHomeDiesel]

My butt and my OBDLINK both say I'm spoolin' and pullin' from 1900 to 2700.  I feel like I'd prefer a 150 - 200 lower than that or am I driving wrong?  AH64ID, do you have a couple of specific smaller s400 turbos you would suggest to me?

 

I'm currently running aluminum 3rd gen wheels on both sets of tires.  When I ran 34" tires on them I loved the mileage and could move at a nice breezy pace in 4th but 3rd to 4th was rough.  I was hoping a stronger better tuned engine would help with that.  It was probably psycological but river crossings in low didnt feel like an ion to me.  That is an interesting note about the 3.73 ratio.  I think I'll give it a try.

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by DownHomeDiesel

[AH64ID]

I don't. I know that a small S400 will give the broadest range of power but beyond that I'd be guessing. 

 

BD used to sell, any may still, a small S300 over a big S300 as towing twins. Maybe see if you can find any specs on that as a starting point?

[NIsaacs]

6 hours ago, DownHomeDiesel said:

My butt and my OBDLINK both say I'm spoolin' and pullin' from 1900 to 2700.  I feel like I'd prefer a 150 - 200 lower than that or am I driving wrong?  AH64ID, do you have a couple of specific smaller s400 turbos you would suggest to me?

 

I'm currently running aluminum 3rd gen wheels on both sets of tires.  When I ran 34" tires on them I loved the mileage and could move at a nice breezy pace in 4th but 3rd to 4th was rough.  I was hoping a stronger better tuned engine would help with that.  It was probably psycological but river crossings in low didnt feel like an ion to me.  That is an interesting note about the 3.73 ratio.  I think I'll give it a try.

 

 

What is your truck exactly, is it stock, miles, year and model? 1900-2700 sounds stock, and a stock truck is wimpy.

 

By just going to an Edge EZ and Genuine new Bosch RV 275 injectors will wake you up. It is cheap, will work fine with your stock turbo and an exhaust brake will bolt right up.

 

I ran this combo for 12 years on my '01 and it will give you 335hp/800tq to the ground. The NV4500 is your weak link. Too much power will allow you to pull a house in 5th gear (not good). With less power, it will force a down shift to 4th, a good thing. For towing, the gears are just spaced too far apart. I recommend a 6spd G56 with the low ratio if you have 3.55 gears, high ratio, if you are running 4.10's.

[Silverwolf2691]

8 hours ago, AH64ID said:

I don't. I know that a small S400 will give the broadest range of power but beyond that I'd be guessing. 

 

BD used to sell, any may still, a small S300 over a big S300 as towing twins. Maybe see if you can find any specs on that as a starting point?

 

 

Hard part with s400's on a vp truck is they dont respond as well as a 6.7. Not as much airflow.

 

https://us.bddiesel.com/collections/dodge-5-9l-cummins-98-5-02-24-valve-turbochargers?constraint=twin-performance They have 3 for our trucks.. Two if you don't have a super b already.

 

Towing setup is an s366 over s358, not sure how its supposed to be written.. 

 

9 hours ago, DownHomeDiesel said:

My butt and my OBDLINK both say I'm spoolin' and pullin' from 1900 to 2700.  I feel like I'd prefer a 150 - 200 lower than that or am I driving wrong?  AH64ID, do you have a couple of specific smaller s400 turbos you would suggest to me?

 

@DownHomeDiesel if you think your spool is slow now, I wouldn't go for an s400. They don't start spooling until 2000+rpm. You would run out of rev range before the turbo even got going. From the sound of the rpm range you described, your "spooled" is full song. S400 with a .90 exhaust housing starts at a t4 foot, and it wont be at full speed until well after 2500 rpm if I had to guess.  

 

If you want that much faster than an hx35, you would have to have go with an he351cw or ve. But those wont support a towing 500hp. Nor or they bolt on and go.

 

The s300g or s358gxe, don't remember if those are the same or not might also work for spool but not 500hp.  

 

Unless you can live with detuning while you have a trailer on, which is easy to do with a quad.

 

The smallest s400 is the s464. Its technically a 63.5mm compressor inducer. It also runs a 74.3mm exducer with a .90 t4 turbine housing.

 

Very rough math with the turbine housing puts it some where around a 16cm^2 housing in Holset terms. The .9 is the smallest housing for this particular turbo, 1.00 and 1.10 are the other options. The t4 foot is larger than a t3 by a good bit, it slows the exhaust velocity down and requires a new manifold. I say rough math because Holset uses an area to describe their turbine housings but everyone else uses an A/R ratio, and there isn't a direct conversion.

 

I'm about 85-90% sure on all this info, its been pulled from forums and supplier sites. Some of the forum info was relatively old (2005-2010), so take with a grain of salt.

 

I still stand by my suggestions for towing, even if you aren't able to use all 500 hp. I believe that 500hp is generally regarded as the limit for towing heavy across the majority of the forums, at least with vp trucks. After that things start getting hot and/or smoky.   

 

[AH64ID]

I wasn’t taking anything about 6.7’s, since the OP has a 5.9. Nothing will spool as fast on a 5.9 as a 6.7, but that’s not really relevant to this conversation. 
 

The spool speed of the primary isn’t quite as important as if that turbo was used as a single. The primary will spool faster in a twin setup than it will as a single. 
 

Lots of stock/S400 and S300/S400 kits on 5.9s. Depending on how they are tuned and fueled they can spool very fast, especially when loaded for towing. 
 

I always thought a set of smaller BB garrets would make a great towing setup, but thats not even close to cheap. 

[Mopar1973Man]

I've several guys around me with twins on the 24v Cummins. It just rather foolish for the ones I've seen. Like I know of one truck with RV275 Injectors with twins. Then there is a second truck like mine with 150 HP injectors and twins again. I still have lower EGT's at cruise either towing or empty. Neither of these have a Quadzilla those two truck are running Edge Juice. There is no timing adjustment... I typically cruise at 550*F EGT's at 65 MPH. 

 

I would consider twins if my truck was towing more often and long haul going cross country.

 

 

[DownHomeDiesel]

Sorry for the delay and thanks again for the replies.  Allow me to elaborate on some of my thoughts.  The guy I'm working with says that he has quit trying to sale 98.5 and 99 heads because the valve seats are always cracked and in reverse of that the 2001 and 02s seem to always be good.  So, figuring there is a good chance my 98.5 head isnt in top shape I was strongly considering putting a head on it and upgraded valve spring and friends.  I was hoping this plus twins would give me a little broader rpm range when needed.  Am I off track? You guys seem very happy with your singles and I value your experience.

[Dieselfuture]

I'm happy with my single and what I do with it, to each their own I guess.

[LorenS]

I'm far from even a good rookie in this discussion, but perhaps one thing that could help narrow this down is if you describe more what kind of towing you do with your truck.
Just for two quick examples, if I was going to use my 2nd Gen to haul heavy equipment up unpaved mountain roads, I would definitely listen to what @NIsaacs has to say.  If I was going to travel the country's interstates pulling for hire, I would follow the lead of @Blueox01 - actually, I kind of did that anyway in the turbocharger department (HEW351W from www.Benzforce.com).  Not sure how many people have put more miles on a truck than him!

 

Since you're interested in a transmission swap, you should look up his build of putting a Fuller (8406?) in his truck.  This may have been the link, but the pics are MIA.

 

[DownHomeDiesel]

I tow a few boats, 5th wheel camper (sometimes out of state), lots of shorter runs with flat bed hauling hay, tractors and implements, skid steers, other pick-up trucks... that is the more common stuff.  

 

I really would like a fuller 8406 but I'm not in a position currently to solve the 4wd problem.  I have to have the 4wd for the farming bits.

[Dieselfuture]

I've been tossing idea of tweens some day, using my custom hx35/40 and something not too big for the other one, I just don't need it, but some day I might do it for fun. Wife keeps changing vehicles every so often wasting money, I guess she makes it so... I figured if I spend few k a year on mine it well worth it to me. I haven't spent much lately so I've been on the look out for a ss manifold and something used for secondary, if i find something I may just do it. 500 safe hp would be awesome for tweens towing and with a good tune I may see close to 700? Not towing bit screwing around. I just keep thinking about everything else and it makes me not be in a hurry. Like nv56 may not like it etc, so why mess with a good thing. Idk maybe some day.