Another hard start/loss of prime

[Towrigdually]

Been working this issue the last few months between work trips, finally home long enough to actually dive into it. Think I have it narrowed down, but would like bounce ideas off the brain collective. 
 

issue is if the truck is left longer than 12hrs you’ll have to cycle the lift pump for a bit to start first hit of the key. If not it’ll crank 5-10 seconds before start. Tried it all, on hills nose up/down and flat ground also. 
 

Truck has new fuel lines, new rubber seals at fittings, new injectors and seals, all fittings are tight with no leaks. 
 

the only “leak” I’ve noticed on the truck is the water drain on the factory fuel bowl, not much but enough to see a dark spot on the motor mount. I also vaguely remember the old injectors being covered in fuel on the outside of the bodies when I pulled them out.

 

my thought is the drip from the fuel drain shouldn’t cause it, but maybe the crossover tubes are worn enough to cause the issue? This is the 4th set of injectors that I know of they’ve been on. 
 

also, the only codes currently are 0122/0500/1693
 

thoughts?

Edited January 23, 2022 by Towrigdually

[IBMobile]

41 minutes ago, Towrigdually said:

my thought is the drip from the fuel drain shouldn’t cause it,

That sure can do it.  Plug the drain hose off first and see what happens.  It may be a cheap easy fix. 

[Towrigdually]

9 hours ago, IBMobile said:

That sure can do it.  Plug the drain hose off first and see what happens.  It may be a cheap easy fix. 

I’ll give it a shot! Cheap is always better in my book

[wil440]

11 hours ago, Towrigdually said:

the only “leak” I’ve noticed on the truck is the water drain on the factory fuel bowl, not much but enough to see a dark spot on the motor mount.

if fuel is leaking out then air is leaking in and by more than the fuel you see leaking out

I recently went to a Volvo L150E loading shovel that wouldn't start, starter was burnt out, no problems there BUT the clown that drives it said  "oh it takes some starting in the morning"

I asked how and why and he said it just cranks  a while

Fuel banjo on the ECM as the ECM is fuel cooled was just wet and I mean just wet, 2 new copper washers and a new starter and job done

 

Due to injection pressures if a crossover tube was leaking air back in when stopped the engine oil would have fuel dilution

 

When you pull injectors it is normal to see the bodies have fuel on them as you just broke the seal by pulling them out and and any fuel still in the head leakoff passage runs down the injector body as you pull it

Fix the fuel bowl first then see

[IBMobile]

1 hour ago, wil440 said:

Fuel banjo on the ECM as the ECM is fuel cooled was just wet and I mean just wet, 2 new copper washers and a new starter and job done

Same problem Volvo diesel cars had in the early '80s', air leak at the fuel filter banjo fitting for the fuel line to the injection pump.  We'd replace the copper washers and no more hard start problem. 

[Towrigdually]

So! Been busy, but I plugged the drain on the factory fuel bowl. It’s seem to have gotten better, but not hit right off, cranks once or twice before it starts. 
I ordered a new drain off rockauto, comes with new o-rings so that’ll be here Thursday and will work forward from there. 

[YeaImDylan]

My issue on my 01 was the banjo bolt on the back of the head for the fuel return. Granted, I had diesel leaking down onto the ground from the bellhousing area and that's what lead me to look for something up there or at least at the back of the engine. Put my hand back there one day and I could move the line freely! 

[wil440]

20 hours ago, Towrigdually said:

So! Been busy, but I plugged the drain on the factory fuel bowl. It’s seem to have gotten better, but not hit right off, cranks once or twice before it starts. 
I ordered a new drain off rockauto, comes with new o-rings so that’ll be here Thursday and will work forward from there. 

I've never seen a factory fuel filter as the previous owner of my truck removed it and didn't both to fit anything else, luckily it was only a very short time before I bought it and it wasn't MOTed anyway so wasn't being used, I fitted a Cat fuel filter complete so I have no idea what the bowl or drain looks like but I will say from experience when you remove the drain check the seating area, threaded area, and the whole bowl area for hairline cracks as It's really common for threaded drains to be overtightened especially when the bowl is plastic, and damage to the O ring seat area

[Mopar1973Man]

I was just called into the local Chevron station to aid in looking into a fuel leak on 4th Gen Cummins. The filter had been changed and later on it started leaking from the screw on lid. They pull it checked the o-ring (no damage) reinstalled the cap and no more leak... 

[wil440]

A lot of the time fuel filters/pipes /connections are easy and just fire them back together using a little engine oil or fuel on O rings and keeping everything clean but then you get the bad deal where nothing you do will make the thing seal, my sons Peugeot Boxer tipper is a good example, last time I did a FF on it it took ME 3 attempts to get it to seal to the point of it's now got a complete new housing on it and there was nothing visually wrong with the one I took off (still went in the bin though)

 

I've seen well meaning people clean filter heads, bowls etc with brake cleaner which is all good then fit an O ring then fit the bowl all bone dry, (this is worse when the bowl screws on) all it needs is a part of the bowl to catch the seal doesn't necessarily do any damage but It can turn a part of the seal with the bowl just enough to stretch a bit of it, this  can make the O ring thinner just in one area and depending on the seal crush you have a air leak IN.  Lube the seal with a little fuel or engine oil it will seal much better BUT don't overtighten as with lube it will tighten much more.

When I started 44 years ago all bowls were either aluminium or steel, when plastic was first starting to be used you only overtightened 1 or 2 before you got the feel for how tight

[Mopar1973Man]

I think that's what happened in town yesterday. Pup did a fuel filter on the 4th Gen clean the bowl up with brake clean and every thing might of caught the o-ring wrong and it started to leak. I pulled the cap inspected and then the fuel dripped all over the bowl so in it went again but this time fuel soaked. No leak after that. I'm also very careful about torquing those plastic caps too being its possible to break the socket stub off the top or strip the threads out on the cap. Who in there right mind build a fuel filter cap with a 1-1/8" hex on top that your going to use a 1/2" drive ratchet and socket? Of course there is a dummy out there leveraging up on the end of a 1/2 inch ratchet to pull it home TIGHT! Don't want it to leak... SNAP! or STRIP!

Edited January 28, 2022 by Mopar1973Man

[Max Tune]

5 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Who in there right mind build a fuel filter cap with a 1-1/8" hex on top that your going to use a 1/2" drive ratchet and socket? Of course there is a dummy out there leveraging up on the end of a 1/2 inch ratchet to pull it home TIGHT! Don't want it to leak... SNAP! or STRIP!

 

Can you say Ford 6.0 fuel and oil filter caps. Torque them down to spec and I swear they tighten another half turn. I get nervous every time I have to change those filters because of how hard I have to hit the breaker bar to get them to snap loose. Not every time, but when it happens......😲😲😲😲 They are made of some kind of plastic resin stuff which is what causes me stress.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Max Tune
Additional thought

[Mopar1973Man]

Where is the nice metal lids?

[Max Tune]

That's how it comes. There are aftermarket caps available, but many are sized wrong. Same with the filters. There are aftermarket ones cheaper, but the slightest difference can cause poor filtering or even a no start condition. It's an incredibly finicky engine. Huge part of me wishes my FIL wouldn't have "blessed" us with this truck, but I'm happy to have it.

[Mopar1973Man]

Nice Ford Truck looks good. I look at the step rail and just think I'll never fit under that truck just to do like an oil change.

[Max Tune]

Nope, gotta lift it. I bought heavy duty ramps to make it easier. Last place that serviced it cranked the cap on the fuel filter on the frame under the driver door and broke the o-ring. Didn't have any way to lift it then so I shimmied under there in FIL driveway and got it fixed. Got under, but couldn't get out because I had to go past my ribs with the step on my stomach. I finally said back to the rear tire and was able to get out, but it was a worrisome bit of time......lol

[Mopar1973Man]

21 minutes ago, Max Tune said:

Didn't have any way to lift it then so I shimmied under there in FIL driveway and got it fixed. Got under, but couldn't get out because I had to go past my ribs with the step on my stomach. I finally said back to the rear tire and was able to get out, but it was a worrisome bit of time......lol

 

I know the feeling I did the same thing yesterday working on 2014 Ram 6.7L Cummins doing a clutch and rear main seal. The control arms are so big for the front axles it too narrow for me to slip under so its rather challenging to shoulder walk under the truck and turn past the control arms. Hopefully today I'm done with this one. Ugh...

[Towrigdually]

So, parts came in. Couldn’t use none of it, completely wrong o-rings and drain assembly. Way to go dorman…

 

anyways, made new o-rings and waiting on glue to cure currently before install. put a new oring on the filter lid, put some sil-glyde on it to help seal. Also put new copper crush washers on in/out of fuel bowl. 

 

I’ll Find out soon enough, been slowly going, thinking I have possibly caught sickness.. 

[Doubletrouble]

Here ya go @Mopar1973Man, no more shoulder walking under a truck. Just glide under and back out again, even side to side if needed.

 

[wil440]

15 hours ago, Towrigdually said:

So, parts came in. Couldn’t use none of it, completely wrong o-rings and drain assembly. Way to go dorman…

 

anyways, made new o-rings and waiting on glue to cure currently before install. put a new oring on the filter lid, put some sil-glyde on it to help seal. Also put new copper crush washers on in/out of fuel bowl. 

 

I’ll Find out soon enough, been slowly going, thinking I have possibly caught sickness.. 

I hope your made O rings seal ok but if you are still having problems replace that first don't assume your made seal is ok