Fel Pro head gasket gave up in 4k miles

[01_Cummins_4x4]

On Dec 9th 2020 I bought a water pump from O'Reilly's and installed it in my pickup. All was good until last night when it went out. It leaked enough coolant out that the radiator fan airflow splashed it into my alternator and caused it to quit charging. My Edge Juice with Attitude said I had 11.8V when I got home.

 

I found my receipt for the water pump and it says it's a Murray CP7145 and it doesn't fit my 01 Cummins, even though that's what O'Reilly's gave me. The pump they gave me fits a 98 and older 12V.

 

A Murray CP6148 fits my 01 and it has a different pump blade design. The 98 pump has a curved plate on it while the 01 style pump doesn't have the curved plate on top of the blades. Is running the 98 style pump on an 01 the reason why the pump went out?

 

My alternator is the Bosch unit and of course O'Reilly's doesn't have one in stock. I did spray it with electronic parts cleaner and used my air compressor to dry it out. I'm going to have O'Reilly's test my alternator to see if it's dead or not.

Edited July 28, 2022 by 01_Cummins_4x4

[01_Cummins_4x4]

My alternator tested fine but my local NAPA alternator tester can't test for AC Noise, just whether or not it's charging. 

 

I picked up a new Bosch type alternator from them for $105 and change, because they have a buy 3 items and get 20% off. I kept my alternator since the core is only $14.30. My alternator has a open groove when it should just be the alternator bracket hole, because the PO didn't tighten up the bolt enough to keep it from moving.

 

This new alternator has its testing slip with it and it shows leakage current at .88 mV which equates to .00088 V. Is the leakage current the same as AC noise?

Edited April 10, 2022 by 01_Cummins_4x4

[Sycostang67]

The pumps are nearly identical spec wise, I can't see that being the reason it leaked.  I figure aftermarket parts are like the lottery, sometimes you win and sometimes not so much.  I've owned my 1967 mustang for 26 years and the lifetime warranty has been used at least 6 times for the power steering pump and about half as much for the water pump.  

[Tractorman]

On 4/10/2022 at 10:29 AM, 01_Cummins_4x4 said:

Is running the 98 style pump on an 01 the reason why the pump went out?

 

Highly unlikely.  Unfortunately, when the third generation trucks came out, quality control on some parts went down the tube - water pumps was one of those parts.  I have three relatives that bought 03 and 04 trucks new.  The OEM water pump failed (bearing failure) at just over 30,000 miles on one truck and well under 100,000 miles on the other two trucks - all bearing and seal failures on OEM water pumps.  Sad.  After-market replacement water pump quality is a gamble, as well.

 

The second generation trucks never seemed to have that problem.  I replaced my OEM water at 216,000 miles with a Geno's Gates water pump in 2014.  The OEM water pump was still working fine - I just thought it was time.  It is now my spare.  The Gates water pump has logged just under 150,000 miles and is working fine.

 

- John

[Great work!]

Curious what kind of antifreeze were you using?

[Mopar1973Man]

441k miles still running the OE water pump. The secret is frequent coolant flushes to keep the pH levels correct. What happen people don't flush the system often enough the pH level starts to drop on the acidic side and starts rotting the metals of anything the coolant touches. Now it starts eating the seals and once the acidic coolant gets into the bearing the water pump fails. 

 

No I've never used distilled water either creek water from my irrigation system or my well water. Again 441k miles still going on the OE water pump. No fancy coolant just NAPA green antifreeze or the yellow universal coolant. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Mopar1973Man

[Tractorman]

4 hours ago, Great work! said:

Curious what kind of antifreeze were you using?

 

The first 106,000 miles was OEM coolant.  Coolant was replaced with whatever Oil Can Henry's was using.  The second coolant change was at 216,000 miles (Napa Long Life).  Third coolant change was at 283,000 miles (Napa Long Life).  Currently running that coolant at 363,000 miles.  At 283,000 miles I installed a coolant filter.  When I replaced the water pump at 216,000, I only did it as a preventative maintenance procedure - it was working fine.

 

Personally, I think the quality of the water pump's bearing and seal diminished significantly in the early third generation trucks which led to failures of what had previously been a bullet proof product.   I don't think the water pump failures were due to coolant change intervals.

 

- John

[Mopar1973Man]

Too long on intervals. Aim for 75k tops. Long life is a joke being every cold start you dumping 600 to 700 amp over the coolant jacket and will charge coolant and start shifting the pH lower. Do not attempt to run the coolant to the limits. Either test with pH test straps or DVM. If you can measure voltage between battery ground and red probe just touch the coolant in the radiator then it getting time to change.

 

0.4 volts change is required

0.2 volts borderline.. keep an eye on it.

[01_Cummins_4x4]

Well, it's not the water pump. 

 

It's leaking out the front between the head and block. I just did the new Fel Pro headgasket, head studs, head was hot tanked, decked, and new valve seals all in the latter part of Oct 2021.

 

just checked the Xotic head studs and they are still at 125 lb ft torque. I did exactly as their instructions say with the lube on the washers and threads, 1st step 40 #, 2nd step 80 #, and 125# torque.

 

I cut two of my factory head bolts and made aligning pins out of them and installed them in the holes with the alignment dowels so that there was no chance of scarring the head gasket with the head. The head was installed using an engine crane and was set down on the gasket evenly.

 

Block was extremely cleaned when putting it all together last Oct. Studs were installed per their instructions of just finger tight. I called Xotic and talked to a tech and asked about retorque of the head studs, and the tech said "if the studs are installed per their steps, no retorque is needed." Now I'm wondering if that's BS and they need to have a hot retorque?

 

My truck has the stock HX35 turbo and I've only seen it get to 32 psi max. 

 

If it's just the head gasket, which brand would you go with? There's probably only 3,500 miles on it since redoing the headgasket.

 

I'm really pissed off about this since I have tendonitis in my left shoulder and I don't have the funds to pay a shop to replace the head gasket.

[wil440]

1 hour ago, 01_Cummins_4x4 said:

just checked the Xotic head studs and they are still at 125 lb ft torque. I did exactly as their instructions say with the lube on the washers and threads, 1st step 40 #, 2nd step 80 #, and 125# torque.

 

I'm a heavy mobile plant mechanic..... 44 years now and counting  mainly Cat and Volvo excavators, loading shovels and dump trucks

 

A few points to note as I see it

1. You had a torque figure which wasn't an angle torque to spec which is easy to retorque hot and me personally I wouldn't have listened to anyone saying they would be ok, also were they all rechecked at 125 once done ( I tend to recheck still cold at least once if not twice)  as the first ones torqued to 125 will usually move especially with lube

 

2. On to lube..... I don't know the Cummins specs for H/G fasteners, are they also 125 and lubed ?  A lubed stud/washer/nut at 125 will be higher torque than a unlubed same, this is why Cat do not lube jack from the factory cos they cannot be sure of the end result

 

3. I'll presume all nuts spun down easy ? I've seen people winding down H/G fasteners with tools because they won't go down with fingers which just removes torque on that one

 

4. Why was the H/G changed ? was it leaking in the same area ? if so was the block checked for flat

 

Maybe check the torque figures for other stud kits to see if the ones you have are different ?? Seems odd though just water at the front on a new gasket, things like low block, gasket not fitting around a water hole too good, poor head skim

 

BUT I just did a quick internet search and advice for ARP's is retorque twice hot once after 15 minutes or so then once after a week or so

 

 

[LorenS]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:49 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

No I've never used distilled water either creek water from my irrigation system or my well water

I think the recommendation to use distilled water is due to so much of the country having chlorine or chloramine in the water. Some older tractor manuals I've seen say to refill the battery with rain water filtered through a "clean rag".

[Mopar1973Man]

Just to prove it's not minerals that cause the issue being both my well and irrigation water is drinkable. Your correct it the pHlevels that city water starts out at and the additive package of the antifreeze can't fix that. Being I'm NOT on city water but natural water there is no issue either. 

 

That why the voltage starts to show being when the pH shifts to acidic (heading towards zero) it will create electrical charge in the coolant. Not to mention every time you start your truck cold you dumping 500 to 700 amp charge across the block super charging the coolant.

 

This is why color is meaningless. If you wait for rust or discoloring it too late already the pH of the coolant is oxidizing the metal cast iron of the block, aluminum of the radiator, heater core etc. This is the oxidized metals you're as scale blooms in the radiator they condense out of solution on the core tube ends. Just consider why I've got my factory water pump at 441k miles. Coolant pH has been kept neutral all these years, no damage to the seal or shaft since no coolant is seeping pass the seal the bearing isn't oxidizing either.

[01_Cummins_4x4]

7 hours ago, wil440 said:

 

I'm a heavy mobile plant mechanic..... 44 years now and counting  mainly Cat and Volvo excavators, loading shovels and dump trucks

 

A few points to note as I see it

1. You had a torque figure which wasn't an angle torque to spec which is easy to retorque hot and me personally I wouldn't have listened to anyone saying they would be ok, also were they all rechecked at 125 once done ( I tend to recheck still cold at least once if not twice)  as the first ones torqued to 125 will usually move especially with lube - I checked the torque on all 26 bolts 3 times after bringing them up to the 125 # torque.

 

2. On to lube..... I don't know the Cummins specs for H/G fasteners, are they also 125 and lubed ?  A lubed stud/washer/nut at 125 will be higher torque than a unlubed same, this is why Cat do not lube jack from the factory cos they cannot be sure of the end result

 

3. I'll presume all nuts spun down easy ? I've seen people winding down H/G fasteners with tools because they won't go down with fingers which just removes torque on that one - all the nuts spun easy down to the washers.

 

4. Why was the H/G changed ? was it leaking in the same area ? if so was the block checked for flat - It had a minor leak coming out the front right corner (pass side) of the headgasket - a common leak area.

 

Maybe check the torque figures for other stud kits to see if the ones you have are different ?? Seems odd though just water at the front on a new gasket, things like low block, gasket not fitting around a water hole too good, poor head skim - it's been 6 months since I did the head gasket and my pickup was my daily driver all winter long without any issues whatsoever.

 

BUT I just did a quick internet search and advice for ARP's is retorque twice hot once after 15 minutes or so then once after a week or so

 

 

 

[01_Cummins_4x4]

Did some research today. 

 

The NAPA Fel-Pro head gasket PFG9522PT is only .0610" thick.

 

The stock Cummins head gasket 3977063 is .067" thick.

 

.006" thinner for the Fel Pro gasket could very well have caused some issues.

[Great work!]

Those blue fel pro gaskets are pretty good, I wonder what happened. I spray copper permeatex

around the edge and then clean any off the main metal sealing rings.

[01_Cummins_4x4]

I've always used Fel Pro head gaskets on my gas engines, but not on a diesel before.

 

I made two alignment pins out of two of the old head bolts and inserted them into the two holes in the block with the alignment dowels, so there was absolutely NO shifting of the head onto the head gasket as the head was being lowered evenly and parallel to the block.

[Mopar1973Man]

Kind of like my Cummins OE gasket that failed at 1,000 miles. 

[01_Cummins_4x4]

3 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Kind of like my Cummins OE gasket that failed at 1,000 miles. 

What brand did you go with this last time?

[Mopar1973Man]

16 hours ago, 01_Cummins_4x4 said:

What brand did you go with this last time?

Cummins OE. They are not made by Cummins. It by a company name BLK.

[01_Cummins_4x4]

Is there any chance that the cylinder head could lift on the studs with a factory HX35 turbo that only reaches 33# max boost?

 

The head was decked by my local reputable machine shop, and the head studs are still torqued at 125 lb ft.

 

I'm just trying to figure out why it happened and the only difference I can think of is the Fel Pro HG is .061" thick and the Cummins OE HG is .067"