99’ 24v Alternator Went Bad, Possibly Fried PCM/ECM/VP44?

[Great work!]

If it's charging good now the PCM is likely good. Dead pedal is communications  issues between ECM on the motor and VP. Electrical noise from various sources corrupt the signals or faults in either module cause com loss. Tuners tap into the bus too so unplug any and check the three pin bus connector by the PS pump for damage or frayed wires. WT mod reduces noise. 

[Tractorman]

2 hours ago, Reaper22 said:

I replaced the alternator and the truck is charging normally now and isn’t draining battery over a few days, however the dead pedal hasn’t gone away. What is the likelihood that something like this fried my VP?

 

I reread your posts and I see no mention of whether or not any codes are present that are unaccounted for.  Your first post mentioned a 0216 code.  That would definitely generate a dead pedal.  So, what are the codes that are still present, if any?

 

- John

[JAG1]

3 hours ago, Tractorman said:

 

I reread your posts and I see no mention of whether or not any codes are present that are unaccounted for.  Your first post mentioned a 0216 code.  That would definitely generate a dead pedal.  So, what are the codes that are still present, if any?

 

- John

John, I drove my truck for 4 yrs long distance trips with an 0216 code. No dead pedal but, I carried with me a newly rebuilt VP and all tools needed just incase.

 

I am wondering if Great work needs a Timbo APPS ? But, that wouldn't throw an 0216 error code. I only hope he does not need a new rebuilt VP.

[Tractorman]

55 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

I drove my truck for 4 yrs long distance trips with an 0216 code. No dead pedal

 

That is interesting.  What I should have said is that a 0216 code could generate a dead pedal condition.   My experience was similar to yours, but I did have the dead pedal symptom.   It happened during a trip near Lewiston, Idaho in 100° weather in August while carrying my truck camper.  It happened four or five times.  Once the weather cooled to below 90°, it never happened again until the following May during a 95° day.  Then as the summer progressed, the dead pedal symptom began occurring more frequently and at lower and lower ambient temperatures.  Finally, after one year and 22,000 miles of driving the truck since the first dead pedal, I had the VP44 pump replaced under warranty.

 

@Reaper22wrote that he when was having charging system problems, he was also showing codes including the code 0216 and a dead pedal symptom.  But, he hasn't said if the code 0216 has gone away after the charging system was fixed.  That is what I was trying to get clarified.

 

- John

[JAG1]

@TractormanI also want to know if the code has cleared. I'm interested because usually the 0216 means a worn timing piston in the VP,

 

BTW, I have had a truck camper new since 03. Had to 'fix or repair daily' for awhile now it's a solid unit.

Edited September 22, 2022 by JAG1

[Reaper22]

Sorry for the late reply y’all, thanks for all the responses as well. Completed the W-T ground mod and took the truck out still gave me dead pedal but only once pulling onto the highway which was fun. The codes came back: P0216 P0380 P1693. Truck is charging great 13.8v constant no drops or fluctuation like before and doesn’t drain overnight anymore. Checked and cleaned my terminals and crossover which looked great used good quality lugs for the new alt and ground connections. Given the information I’m getting from y’all it’s unfortunately looking like the VP with 39k miles on it.   Really thought having the fass and big lines would get me at least 150-200k but guess that’s what I get for picking the 24v, sure is bitchin when it runs though…Anything else worth checking? 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Reaper22

[Tractorman]

7 hours ago, Reaper22 said:

it’s unfortunately looking like the VP with 39k miles on it.

 

The P0216 code coming back with the dead pedal is of concern.  If I am understanding correctly, you did not have any driveability problems prior the the charging system problem.  Is this correct?  

 

7 hours ago, Reaper22 said:

Really thought having the fass and big lines would get me at least 150-200k but guess that’s what I get for picking the 24v

 

In my opinion, over the years there has been too much emphasis placed on the role of lift pump performance related to VP44 needs.  If you are seeing a positive fuel pressure at the inlet of the VP44 under all driving conditions, then the VP44 is operating and cooling itself as it should.  It is possible that the remanufactured VP44 from Thoroughbred Diesel is not remanufactured to Bosch's standards - not all remanufactured pumps are treated the same.  

 

My original VP44 failed at 64,000 miles - replaced at 87,000 miles.  I now have over 280,000 on the remanufactured VP44 and this VP44 has never seen any lift pump pressure higher than 12 psi - and that's at idle.  Normal driving it is around 6 psi.

 

If the P0216 code and dead pedal issue did not happen until after the charging system problem began, then I would try to rule out all other possibilities before replacing the VP44.

 

- John

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Tractorman

[Reaper22]

26 minutes ago, Tractorman said:

 

The P0216 code coming back with the dead pedal is of concern.  If I am understanding correctly, you did not have any driveability problems prior the the charging system problem.  Is this correct?  

 

 

Over the years there has been too much emphasis placed on lift pump performance relater to VP44 performance.  If you are seeing a positive fuel pressure at the inlet of the VP44 under all driving conditions, then the VP44 is operating and cooling itself as it should.  It is possible that the remanufactured VP44 from Thoroughbred Diesel is not remanufactured to Bosch's standards - not all remanufacture pumps are the same.  

 

My original VP44 failed at 64,000 miles - replaced at 87,000 miles.  I now have over 280,000 on the remanufactured VP44 and this VP44 has never seen any lift pump pressure higher than 12 psi - and that's at idle.  Normal driving it is around 6 psi.

 

- John

 

 

Sounds like you got one of the good pumps. You are correct that I had no driveability problems prior to running the bad alternator for longer than I should’ve. I did notice my trucks max boost going down over the last 8-10 months. Used to hit around 37psi and now I usually max around 29-30. I originally attributed this to a possible exhaust leak or just 240k miles on stock injectors but understanding the VP mechanics makes me wonder if my timing wasn’t optimal and this was an early sign of VP failure. Just connecting random dots with that idea though 

[Mopar1973Man]

I lost my first VP44 at 50k, stock fuel system with only 7 PSI. This was the start of the website and the very first article. 

 

I installed a AirDog 150 shortly after that VP44 failed and kept 14 to 20 PSI that got that VP44 to last 243k miles. Still going on this VP44 at 451k miles. So in nearly half a million miles only installed two VP44. With the stock filter in place I'm polishing my fuel through the AirDog and the stock filter.

 

As for the P0216 code it's more lubricity than fuel pressure. The piston galls up and sticks or seizes up.

 

4 ways to kill a VP44

 

1. Low fuel pressure even the Dodge FSM states 10 PSI minimum.

2. Low fuel lubricity Bosch states <460 HFRR or less, US fuel is 520 HFRR.

3. High AC noise from alternator.

4. Poor filtration.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Mopar1973Man

[Reaper22]

3 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I lost my first VP44 at 50k, stock fuel system with only 7 PSI. This was the start of the website and the very first article. 

 

I installed a AirDog 150 shortly after that VP44 failed and kept 14 to 20 PSI that got that VP44 to last 243k miles. Still going on this VP44 at 451k miles. So in nearly half a million miles only installed two VP44. With the stock filter in place I'm polishing my fuel through the AirDog and the stock filter.

 

As for the P0216 code it's more lubricity than fuel pressure. The piston galls up and sticks or seizes up.

 

4 ways to kill a VP44

 

1. Low fuel pressure even the Dodge FSM states 10 PSI minimum.

2. Low fuel lubricity Bosch states <460 HFRR or less, US fuel is 520 HFRR.

3. High AC noise from alternator.

4. Poor filtration.

 

 

So the 216 code and the fact that my truck charges well guarantees that my problem lies in the VP and not the PCM? I just don’t want to buy a pump to find out my PCM was the problem and have to send that in as well. 

[Tractorman]

57 minutes ago, Reaper22 said:

So the 216 code and the fact that my truck charges well guarantees that my problem lies in the VP and not the PCM?

 

I don't believe the PCM can be involved.  The communication for fueling and timing (the P2016 code) is between the ECM and the PSG mounted on top of the VP44.  The P0216 code could be caused mechanically (binding timing piston, for example) or by an issue with communication between the ECM and the PSG which can include wiring.

 

I still bothers me about the timing of getting the P0216 code the while the charging system was mal-functioning.  How often does the dead pedal occur?   If it is infrequent, it may be worth driving the truck for awhile as it is.  At least it would give you time to make sure that you have covered all bases.  I don't know if I would be ready to give up on the VP44 just yet.

 

- John

[Mopar1973Man]

1 hour ago, Reaper22 said:

So the 216 code and the fact that my truck charges well guarantees that my problem lies in the VP and not the PCM? I just don’t want to buy a pump to find out my PCM was the problem and have to send that in as well. 

PCM does not control anything on the engine. Only charging, transmission controls, and a few minor functions.

 

P0216 code just means the ECM commanded a timing change and the VP44 did not change in the allotted time. Yes this does mean the VP44 should be replaced.

 

Now if you had other codes then might change the outcome.

[W-T]

@Reaper22your report of 13.7 volts DC charge is a good sign you've corrected what had plagued your system. This thread has two focus aspects and I'm late in arriving to the fray of it all and I'll attempt to be concise with my contribution.

 

The "term" noise on the rectified DC output of a given alternator is becoming an issue.

 

An Alternator does produce rectified DC with a certain amount of ripple that is very normal when diodes are used to rectify an AC wave form. In practice of creating a DC power supply, the rectifiers are always followed by a form of filtering, being capacitors or a swinging choke that "smooths the ripple" to a much lower level. The standard alternators being used in these CTD's are "3 phase" and when you view the DC output on a shop oscilloscope you'll see the little "camel humps" riding on the DC reference level. The amplitude of these "camel humps" is minimal when referenced to the overall DC potential being generated. You should view this as ripple not noise. The parallel batteries present a tremendous amount of capacitance to "filter" and nearly remove all of the "little camel humps" left over from the rectification process resulting in a substantially clean 12 volt DC rail. Attention to clean terminals, correctly terminated connections and healthy heavy gauge wire firmly tightened into operational condition is best practice. I do believe your efforts have provided improvements due to the age of your CTD platform and alleviated the factory errors by delving into the WT ground MOD.

 

I do encourage you to follow the original article and "double strap" your batteries into a fully compliant parallel configuration to provide absolute strapped capacitance and provide error free charge rate for the Battery Temperature Sensor kissing the bottom case of your driver's side battery. The B+ initial current, from the alternator, now enters the passenger side first and the PCM is monitoring the "thermometer" in the baby's butt at the drivers side battery. Double strapping is the only way to avoid lopsided capacitance for proper filtering and temperature charge rate monitoring with NO error! This procedure has NOTHING to do with voltage drop.

 

NOW...as for NOISE

The alternator has a set of brushes that come into contact with the "collector rings", commonly referred to as "slip rings" and this is your "random" noise source within a given alternator. They wear and go through physical changes in time of use. The accidental BUFFOONERY of touching plus to minus battery terminals while the engine is at idle with a conductive tool for just a micro-second causes damage to the collector rings and brushes. Improperly applying jumper cables to assist a fellow motorist with a "real dead" battery is also a wear point to consider because the immense current flow at the initial point of "contact" blows away the metal structure of the collector rings and brushes at precise locations over the 360 degree rotation surface. This abnormality of a current conductive surface "making and breaking" for only fractional moments of time becomes an "Arc transmitter" and produces copious amounts of random electromagnetic and electrostatic noise. Viewing this on a shop oscilloscope will appear as "hairy fuzz" encompassing your DC rail. This is "real" noise and NOT ripple from the rectification circuit.

 

Having a hand held Digital Volt Meter (DVM) will not show you noise, it only displays ripple (when AC coupled) on the DC rail however; noise on a DC rail renders a DVM to display erroneous levels in amplitude. A shop or laboratory oscilloscope is the only method to assure absolute accuracy. 

 

Build your DC power supply (alternator & batteries) with excellent interconnecting cables and terminations for clean unadulterated DC integrity to supply the system clean voltage...all of the interrelated electronic wizardry will perform correctly. Standard run-of-the-mill procedures are not a measure of excellence...it is budgetary.

 

Cheers,

W-T   

 

 

[Tractorman]

W-T, I can't believe it!  You took the words right out of my mouth!  What are the odds!?

 

 

BUFFOONERY  -  Good word.

 

As always, an excellent post....

 

- John

Edited September 25, 2022 by Tractorman

[JAG1]

12 hours ago, Tractorman said:

 

 

 

BUFFOONERY  -  Good word.

 

 

He's been applying for building permits and following news from Washington.

 

BTW, my 4 year long episode of traveling with the 0216 error code was a warning and when I experienced my first hard start I traveled another two day trip to Idaho to have MoparMan change my VP44, the code has never come back, I think heavy dosses of 2 stroke oil in the fuel saved me from being stranded the whole 4 years.

Edited September 25, 2022 by JAG1

[Nomad2015]

I've got a 2001 2nd gen and about a week ago during a cold snap, I was getting P1291 on start it seem not to affect the truck. Yesterday while driving the check gauges lite came on because of low volts. Today I cleaned all the battery connections and fired up the engine and put my tool in the 12v socket to check the charging system it said the battery was almost dead and the alternator is overcharging and then the alternator cooked itself in a cloud of yellow smoke. The connector plug appeared to be damaged so I got a new alternator and new connector but now I'm afraid of burning up the new alternator. 

[Nomad2015]

17 hours no response well this is worth the money. Just like a dodge nothing is easy!

 

[Max Tune]

Couple things.  First, this thread hasn't been active since September. Questions in it have been answered so others may not realize you are adding on with a separate issue.  Second, you should start a new thread for your issue.  That tends to get more views and interest.

 

 

Now for your problem. You had an alternator burn up. You replaced it. Why are you worried about the new one? Is it acting up or not charging? Any problems after the new alternator?

 

 

By the way, welcome to the site. Alot of knowledge here and helpful people. It's  not crazy busy, but problems do get solved here.

[hdpwipmonkey]

what is the output of the new alternator?  Should be about 14.2V.   If its putting out the correct voltage and your batteries are reading almost dead then either there is a bad connection or there is a bad battery.  You said you cleaned all the terminals so I would guess a bad battery.  If you replace batteries you should do them both. 

 

Also, you should start your own topic with your own title.  It makes it easier to keep things straight so folks are able to help you specifically.  This topic although it is charging related (sort of) it is for a 1999 vs 2001 for your truck.  Plus its considered bad form to high jack someone else's topic. 

 

Max tune just beat me...

Edited February 25, 2023 by hdpwipmonkey

[Max Tune]

Couple things.  First, this thread hasn't been active since September. Questions in it have been answered so others may not realize you are adding on with a separate issue.  Second, you should start a new thread for your issue.  That tends to get more views and interest.

 

 

Now for your problem. You had an alternator burn up. You replaced it. Why are you worried about the new one? Is it acting up or not charging? Any problems after the new alternator?

 

 

By the way, welcome to the site. Alot of knowledge here and helpful people. It's  not crazy busy, but problems do get solved here.

 

 

Here's your code. You may have grid heaters issue may have burned up your  alternator....

 

Like was said above. You may have a bad battery.  Remove them, fully charge, then test each separately.  If one is bad, you have to replace both. Good luck...

 

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Max Tune