VP-44 Cooler?

[Mopar1973Man]

The best fix I can think if is to simply REMOVE the computer from the top of the VP and mount it somewhere less susceptible to direct heat contact from the hot engine. Sounds simple enough..... But no ones been able to successfully pull this off. Something to do with the surrounding electrical interference the farther the computer gets from the VP causing problems.

Also has to do with the ribbon cable that goes down inside the pump for speed sensor and fuel sensor... Really hard to extend a ribbon cable and shield it from noise and mechanical damage. Like today Riggins, ID was easy 100*F outside. Temperatures don't seem to bother the VP44 or me really. Kind of looking at it this way. Engine has a cooling system where the water moves around and the cylinders and head and returns to the radiator for cooling. The VP44 is similar because as long as the fuel pressure is 14-20 PSI the fuel continues to move pass the electronics and pull the heat from it. But now reduce your fuel pressure below 14 PSI it like taking the belt off the water pump. Eventually the VP44 will overheat (electronics).

[KATOOM]

Also has to do with the ribbon cable that goes down inside the pump for speed sensor and fuel sensor... Really hard to extend a ribbon cable and shield it from noise and mechanical damage. Like today Riggins, ID was easy 100*F outside. Temperatures don't seem to bother the VP44 or me really. Kind of looking at it this way. Engine has a cooling system where the water moves around and the cylinders and head and returns to the radiator for cooling. The VP44 is similar because as long as the fuel pressure is 14-20 PSI the fuel continues to move pass the electronics and pull the heat from it. But now reduce your fuel pressure below 14 PSI it like taking the belt off the water pump. Eventually the VP44 will overheat (electronics).

Wonder how the ribbon cable problem could be rectified? It would seem to be the only real way to stop the excessive heat from affecting the FPCM. And good analogy too.....although not really as bad as taking the engine belt off but rather something like taking out the thermostat and replacing it with a plate which only has a 1/4" hole in it, and still expecting the cooling system to work on a hot day. Coolant will still flow through the engine.....but with little ability to keep temps under control. Now to take that analogy you've created a little further and say that adding a big HP timing/fueling box to the VP is exactly like adding huge injectors to the engine. The higher EGT's created by the additional fuel are even more work for the cooling system. Which is why big HP tuners can aggravate VP reliability.

[dripley]

I would have to agree with Katoom. It is not the heat the engine is seeing while you are operating, but the heatsoke after shut down. the fuel flow while runnig should keep the fpcm happy. But once that is gone the heat soak starts. I always try to let mine idle down to 275* egt for the turbo, so I hope that helps the VP. I cant see a blower is a bad thing just not sure that is for me.

[CUMMINSDIESELPWR]

Here is my proposal on how to mitigate thermal soak on the vp after shutdown. As Dripley and Katoom have stated the issue is heat soak after the engine is shut down. I have much experience in passive, active CPU cooling from building computers in the range of $3000 or more just for the case and guts, so cooling is vital. My idea is to get a high thermal conductive/non electrically conductive resin or paste and directly inject it into the housing under ther cover where the FPCM is. this will ensure a direct thermal link from the hot board to the cover directly to the heat sink. This heat sink can be a machined piece of copper (best) with high surface area to radiate heat, and a flat surface covering the entire FPCM cover. Doing just like a cpu, put thermal compund between the heatsink and the cover, secure it, toss a fan on it being ran off the batteries and either a timer or thermal switch to kill the power when it has cooled sufficiently. Taking the cover off and drilling a small hole on one top corner, and one on the opposite bottom corner then replace the cover, using a syringe or other method inject the thermal compund into the cavity where the board resides. this will ensure no bubbles are there and full contact is made to the cover. assemble and you are good to go. I will in time try this and see how it goes. It can be on when the truck is running, and with a solar charger to the batteries run after shutdown. here is a prime example of resin that can be used. however it may become permanent and may void warranty but if the vp lives for a loooong time, you can save up for a new one... http://www.epoxies.com/therm.htm http://www.epoxies.com/tech/50-3150RFR.pdf thoughts?

[KATOOM]

Uh..........I was lost after the third sentence. But I elect you hired to complete the objected task you speak of.

[Baconbitsforu]

Yes. I get what your saying. I build computer on the side so I see were your going. I got the FP Im just trying to help with the heat soak. I think a under 100 buck blower//heatsink that runs after shutdown for X amount is way better than nothing at all.

[CUMMINSDIESELPWR]

Yes. I get what your saying. I build computer on the side so I see were your going. I got the FP Im just trying to help with the heat soak. I think a under 100 buck blower//heatsink that runs after shutdown for X amount is way better than nothing at all.

you are correct and it can be done but the key is getting the heat pulled directly off the board on the pump, and to do this most effectively you must fill the space with something thermally conductive/non electrically conductive otherwise you are only going to cool off the cover and nothing more.

[flagmanruss]

Since liquid transfers heat better than gas... I wonder if a cooling collar could be built around the coupling between the block & the VP44... although it would not affect the radient heat from the side of the block... would have to coupled to it's own radiator & a cooling pump... OK, not practical but I'zzz thinkin. Maybe more practical... the aftermarket electric cooling fans for the whole engine... wired on their own thermostat... run after shut down. They'd only be air cooling but would continue to blow outside air over the whole engine compartment.

[KATOOM]

Yes. I get what your saying. I build computer on the side so I see were your going. I got the FP Im just trying to help with the heat soak. I think a under 100 buck blower//heatsink that runs after shutdown for X amount is way better than nothing at all.

No one look at the screen like I'm crazy but let me share something really really bizarre.....which I can only connect to what I did while trying to stop as much VP heat soak as possible. Like so many others, I live where summer heat can get in the triple digits. When the outside temps get over around 75*-80* is when the VP will begin to heat soak to uncomfortable levels. So when driving on days this hot and I'd come home, I'd pull the truck in the garage, open the hood and lay a smaller free standing house floor fan directly on the side of the engine blowing down on the VP. I'd just turn it on high and come back later to turn it off when everything was fully cooled down. Was it doing anything to aid in heat soak????? Not sure.....but something strange happened more than once while I used the fan. The next day or so, fan put away and hood closed, I started the truck and heard a crazy loud hissing noise coming from under the hood, the engine shook violently, and I had ZERO fuel pressure. Instantly I'd shut the truck off and look for the problem or anything standing out but finding nothing. The first time this happened I could have sworn the engine was running "backwards". It was that weird. Days or weeks later, it happened again but this time I let it ride out only to have it last for about 3-5 seconds and then it stopped making noise, engine stopped shaking, and the fuel pressure became normal. This crazy event happened to me a few times before I made the direct correlation that the VP was the source of the loud hissing noise, the engine shake must have been because of whacked out fuel timing, and the loss in fuel pressure was something to do with the VP telling the ECM to stop power to the fuel pump. Sounds strange and bizarre I know but when I stopped using the floor fan to cool the VP like I was, all this weird stuff stopped happening. So.......... I've come to the conclusion that my VP simply doesn't like to be rapidly cooled off or that possibly there is some internal programing in the FPCM to acknowledge the increase in heat after engine shutdown and by cooling the VP like I did caused something to go awry in the electronics. Now I know someone's going to post a rebuttal saying there's no connection but truly, this only happened (more than once or twice) when I cooled the VP with a fan. Now if its hot out, I simply open the hood and let all that hot air escape. Believe it or not, that does help.

[dripley]

That is pretty strange. I have no rebuttal to it no more than I could explain it. But if you say it happened, I have no reason not to beleive it.

[JAG1]

According to two guys that placed remote thermostats on the vp, reported on TDR forum, they discovered various moments when the VP would go over factory temp ratings, while towing, heavy acceleration, and long steep grades. Mostly during hot weather. Most damaging longer durations of higher temps was after engine shut down from engine heat soak. They found leaving the blower on for one hour after shut down and while running hard to be adequate in keeping the VP within it's specified temperatures. They found the air blower to be more effective than plumbing in fuel coolers they had tried on the supply line and return line.They found dodges fuel system of returning the hot fuel back to the fuel canister, next to the draw straw, to be a poor design. Esp. when needing to pick up cooler fuel elsewhere in the tank, not from an almost enclosed module. Now I know it's not fully enclosed due to the fine mesh screens. However, it is more restrictive and has a far less chance of mixing with cooler fuel. I have seen these fine screens build up varnish over time. A slow process, but, eventually clog up where they can restrict flow.To solve this I cut those screens out, but, if you do your asking for sediments to be run thru the lift pump causing wear or clogged lift pump screens. To solve this problem I installed a large Racor filter designed to work on the suction side of the fuel system. This protects the lift pump 'prefiltering' the fuel and helps the factory filter further down the line.I carried this a step farther by replumbing my return fuel line to dump into the filler neck and no longer near the draw straw.I also installed a better tank vent. At first I saw little need, but, after hearing of the dodge vents causing tank collapse, ( happened to my old 92 ctd) I decided to do it anyway.

[hex0rz]

If it was a matter of cooling while the fuel was flowing, I would of had the perfect design. But to keep it cool AFTER the fact, thats a little more of a challenge.Although, the idea of using a heatpaste/sink like a computer holds the most with me IMO.

[Mopar1973Man]

Always tickled me to no end now that summer is here everyone worries about figuring out how to cool a VP44. Then some of us only have about 3-4 months of hot weather and the go back into the freezer again.

[KATOOM]

Always tickled me to no end now that summer is here everyone worries about figuring out how to cool a VP44. Then some of us only have about 3-4 months of hot weather and the go back into the freezer again.

It is funny to watch the threads cycle back and forth from hot weather issues to cold weather issues.

- - - Updated - - -

According to two guys that placed remote thermostats on the vp, reported on TDR forum, they discovered various moments when the VP would go over factory temp ratings, while towing, heavy acceleration, and long steep grades. Mostly during hot weather. Most damaging longer durations of higher temps was after engine shut down from engine heat soak. They found leaving the blower on for one hour after shut down and while running hard to be adequate in keeping the VP within it's specified temperatures. They found the air blower to be more effective than plumbing in fuel coolers they had tried on the supply line and return line.

They found dodges fuel system of returning the hot fuel back to the fuel canister, next to the draw straw, to be a poor design. Esp. when needing to pick up cooler fuel elsewhere in the tank, not from an almost enclosed module. Now I know it's not fully enclosed due to the fine mesh screens. However, it is more restrictive and has a far less chance of mixing with cooler fuel. I have seen these fine screens build up varnish over time. A slow process, but, eventually clog up where they can restrict flow.

To solve this I cut those screens out, but, if you do your asking for sediments to be run thru the lift pump causing wear or clogged lift pump screens. To solve this problem I installed a large Racor filter designed to work on the suction side of the fuel system. This protects the lift pump 'prefiltering' the fuel and helps the factory filter further down the line.

I carried this a step farther by replumbing my return fuel line to dump into the filler neck and no longer near the draw straw.

I also installed a better tank vent. At first I saw little need, but, after hearing of the dodge vents causing tank collapse, ( happened to my old 92 ctd) I decided to do it anyway.

JAG1 brought up a great point I forgot to talk about. And that being the fuel module. The only reason I feared re-routing my return line into the fill hose was because I remember hearing that by doing so can potentially cause an issue with low fuel level in the tank since no longer is that fuel feeding the fuel module basket, which the bottom acts like a "cup" for fuel to sit in, always feeding the engine. Not being completely sure if the return fuel was an issue, I wasn't willing to create a problem trying to solve another. And the way I look, I'm only hoping that with my fuel pressure running at 16-19 psi all the time (far more volume than OEM), the volume of return fuel is so great that its constantly overflowing the "cup" and keepeth my cuppeth full.....and overflowing.

[Mopar1973Man]

I personally would think harsh northern winters would be worse on a VP44 going from -40*F to 190*F (assuming the VP44 could heat soak this much) which is a 230 degree difference from cold starting to full engine temp. But now there is a issue with a VP44 when it goes only 90*F ??? I figure with the huge span of expansion and contraction the circuit board and soldier joint would break much more during the winter that the summer?Here is my minimum, average and maximum temperatures for Riggins, ID (local town)

[hex0rz]

Hope this is not defined as off-topic, but how effective is the fuel heater in the fuel canister?

[JAG1]

It is funny to watch the threads cycle back and forth from hot weather issues to cold weather issues.

- - - Updated - - -

JAG1 brought up a great point I forgot to talk about. And that being the fuel module. The only reason I feared re-routing my return line into the fill hose was because I remember hearing that by doing so can potentially cause an issue with low fuel level in the tank since no longer is that fuel feeding the fuel module basket, which the bottom acts like a "cup" for fuel to sit in, always feeding the engine. Not being completely sure if the return fuel was an issue, I wasn't willing to create a problem trying to solve another. And the way I look, I'm only hoping that with my fuel pressure running at 16-19 psi all the time (far more volume than OEM), the volume of return fuel is so great that its constantly overflowing the "cup" and keepeth my cuppeth full.....and overflowing.

I have the very first prototype drawstraw ever built by Vulcan performance. Eric said while we were putting it in that I cut it too short. That's okay I said:thumbup2: lets put it in anyhow.

I never worried about running out of fuel till I really wanted to find out someday, how far she would go. Well I did finally...... and found about ten miles beyond the low fuel light comes on is all she would go. That was at diesel fuel pump hunting speeds.

So it's not bad having a fuel cup overflowing with cooler fuel.

I like my set up and when my origonal vp gets up the to the 500 k mark we'll know..... I doubt it but hoping anyway.

[CUMMINSDIESELPWR]

I personally would think harsh northern winters would be worse on a VP44 going from -40*F to 190*F (assuming the VP44 could heat soak this much) which is a 230 degree difference from cold starting to full engine temp. But now there is a issue with a VP44 when it goes only 90*F ??? I figure with the huge span of expansion and contraction the circuit board and soldier joint would break much more during the winter that the summer? Here is my minimum, average and maximum temperatures for Riggins, ID (local town) [ATTACH=CONFIG]4204[/ATTACH]

you do have a valid point but the heat in summer would change the solders composition to a crystalline structure more prone to breaking during the temp swings. solder becomes "brittle"

[Mopar1973Man]

you do have a valid point but the heat in summer would change the solders composition to a crystalline structure more prone to breaking during the temp swings. solder becomes "brittle"

If the solder is the point then why isn't all the other electronics failing to this problem? ECM or PCM?PCM within inches of a hot exhaust that could be 1,200*F and ECM hung on a block that 190-200*F with coolant?

[JAG1]

If the solder is the point then why isn't all the other electronics failing to this problem? ECM or PCM?PCM within inches of a hot exhaust that could be 1,200*F and ECM hung on a block that 190-200*F with coolant?

Interesting...... Now need a blower to the PCM