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Can we talk, or is it allowed to post about Obama Care?... couple Questions.....


JAG1

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If it's free medical care for the poor won't that encourage more illegals across our borders?

Boy, if you can figure it all out and tell me what it all really means, let me know. Even our "leaders" can't even agree what to call the individual mandate as. The illegals receive free medical already, they don't need to worry about this bill. If they only knew what ALL of the benefits they receive for being an illegal. Obama is shooting for granting amnesty for the current illegals. Soon enough it will just be like grand central station. Come and go as you please, it don't matter. :nono::moon:
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I really don't have any problem with political threads as long as they don't attack people. Like saying "anyone who voted for whoever is a loser"... In other words, keep it constructive :thumb1:

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I'm not necessarily a pro Obama .... But why the focus on Obama care when there are still 2 outstanding wars in the middle east costing over 1.3 trillion and killing American soldiers ...... Don't want to start a war here either ..... But never understood that :shrug: Healthcare for low income versus war for oil ? http://costofwar.com/

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I'm not necessarily a pro Obama .... But why the focus on Obama care when there are still 2 outstanding wars in the middle east costing over 1.3 trillion and killing American soldiers ...... Don't want to start a war here either ..... But never understood that :shrug: Healthcare for low income versus war for oil ? http://costofwar.com/

My thoughts... :) I am not pro war. But I am pro military. I feel that the military has given much to us, technologically, economically, and has really been a big deal for many many men and women who have served. I tend to see a high success rate in .mil folks, they tend to have professional character qualities that make them very desirable and valuable people. I don't like the wars, and how they have been handled, but I will say that they have been successful in some ways. The war is significant, but not really within the same scope as the Obama Care legislation. "War for oil..." Well, sure. We need oil. Oil or die really. GW1 was over oil. Without oil, the world goes into world war fighting over it. We've gone to war over energy for pretty much ever. Again John, how its been implemented is a different thing altogether, but we go to war over natural resources, philosophy, and in the end, its supposedly in the defense of our lives and way of life. Comparing this to health care, at least we are getting a pretty big influence in the worlds biggest oil producing region. That influence should not be discounted. Russia would LOVE to have that influence, which is why it courts Iran so much. I am very opposed to how we have implemented our "social assistance" programs here in the U.S. We have turned them into entitlement programs, that far too many people live off of because they can. This is my main root beef with the legislation. Our healthcare system needed fixed, and still does. The bottom line is that we cannot afford the system that the Obama Administration and Congress designed to roll on over the next few years. Its execution and design is horrible and not sustainable. The new taxes won't cover the costs, and I do not feel like paying more taxes for others health care. Food stamps, welfare states, socialism, it isn't working in the way we have implemented it here in the USA. Socialized medicine works in our military. Socialized medicine seems to work well in Canada. But we are doing medicine wrong here. I am not opposed to helping people. I don't want to come off as cold and uncaring for the poor. I do not want to see people go hungry and just be thrown to the wolves in the cold. We are just doing it wrong with this legislation. Life isn't easy. The government can't bail us out of everything. And we just can't afford all of this.
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My thoughts... :)

:) ..... well for some background I have no real world experience with the military - but I have the same discussions with my dad who retired Sergeant Major (marines) and served in Vietnam, 3 purple hearts. I read the above as .. "its ok to go to war if it means we are better off and secure our future" "its not ok to spend money on illegals who cross our borders and the lazy people riding the system" Don't get me wrong - I work hard and pay taxes. I just have a different thought process. Id quite easily tomorrow give up half my net worth if it meant more people live a balanced life. Id still work hard and still try and do the most I can with what I have - but generally I feel I don't do enough in this life for other people who aren't as fortunate (legal or illegal) so if I can contribute more in taxes or do other things to help support that - Id rather do it than go to war at huge financial and personal loss. Also -I'm not naive, I know what previous wars have given in terms of security and wealth - but if we can no longer stand on our own feet and ingenuity to prosper - maybe its time for someone else to drive for a while :) Its a real hard discussion and lots of pros/cons ........ I just hate seeing people I know personally struggle for health insurance and the health of their kids (hard working people here ) .... when other countries I have lived in offer FREE healthcare ..... So to me the question I think should be asked is ..... Why do we HAVE to go to war to feel this way. And why CANT we afford free healthcare to citizens/workers even with it... :)
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:) ..... well for some background I have no real world experience with the military - but I have the same discussions with my dad who retired Sergeant Major (marines) and served in Vietnam, 3 purple hearts. I read the above as .. "its ok to go to war if it means we are better off and secure our future" "its not ok to spend money on illegals who cross our borders and the lazy people riding the system" Don't get me wrong - I work hard and pay taxes. I just have a different thought process. Id quite easily tomorrow give up half my net worth if it meant more people live a balanced life. Id still work hard and still try and do the most I can with what I have - but generally I feel I don't do enough in this life for other people who aren't as fortunate (legal or illegal) so if I can contribute more in taxes or do other things to help support that - Id rather do it than go to war at huge financial and personal loss. Also -I'm not naive, I know what previous wars have given in terms of security and wealth - but if we can no longer stand on our own feet and ingenuity to prosper - maybe its time for someone else to drive for a while :) Its a real hard discussion and lots of pros/cons ........ I just hate seeing people I know personally struggle for health insurance and the health of their kids (hard working people here ) .... when other countries I have lived in offer FREE healthcare ..... So to me the question I think should be asked is ..... Why do we HAVE to go to war to feel this way. And why CANT we afford free healthcare to citizens/workers even with it... :)

John, Never said you were naive, please don't take that this way. :) I would like to keep this as a friendly discussion, as this is a truck forum, and I would not want to ruin that, as you are a smart guy and I like learning from you and bouncing ideas off you. I spent quite a bit of time reading your old transmission posts! :thumb1: Let someone else drive... Yeah, its fair to say I am not an Obama fan and that is based mainly on things other than his namesake healthcare legislation. I am not a raging Bush fan or PaulBot either. :lmao2: Also, Thanks to your dad for his service. I am not advocating war as a solution, unfortunately, many times it's been the chosen option... However, the global economy, politics, and military maneuvering are all very much linked. Still, to compare the war to Obama Care is somewhat off topic, though they are both a lot of dollars. I feel that I can support the troops, and even support our strong global presence, without contradicting my stance on Obama Care. The problem with free healthcare, and free stuff though... Is that it isn't free. Someone is going to pay for it. Most of us that work and make enough to support our families pay for much of it, our retirements, stocks, and profits will pay for it, and our progeny will pay for it. I have little to no confidence in the skills of the US Government to implement my healthcare. They have shown in the past that they have very little ability to administrate much without it becoming a bureaucratic nightmare that soaks in inefficiency and waste. As I said, the health care system in the US needs reform, but Obama Care isn't it. Its like social security. It can't be funded. It is broken. What money there is left is mostly borrowed from other areas, or supplied in deficit spending. Unfortunately, its been a scam that we've all been sold on. And the fact is that the money that we all have paid in has been spent. I don't relish the fights when we actually have to pay the piper on that one, and I don't want to see another great social program further bankrupt our nation. And as far as helping others, yes, I agree. I am not a greedy guy. I work hard and try to put myself in a position to do well, I am not one to sacrifice all and others for material gain. At the moment I have been pretty well blessed financially. That may change next year though depending on what happens. I like helping others, and believe I am called to do so. Back to my above point though, I don't feel that the government has done a good job in their efforts to build a Great Society... In the end, I feel we were better off in the days prior, in terms of the economy and the "war on poverty." Free healthcare, as administrated and as designed in the Obama Care bill, is just another big spending and tax bill that really isn't going to help us as a whole, and will really bite me over my lifetime. So in my answer to your question, we can't have FREE healthcare. We could have affordable and fair healthcare. But, unfortunately, we aren't going down the road of either.
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Free healthcare, as administrated and as designed in the Obama Care bill, is just another big spending and tax bill that really isn't going to help us as a whole, and will really bite me over my lifetime. So in my answer to your question, we can't have FREE healthcare. We could have affordable and fair healthcare. But, unfortunately, we aren't going down the road of either.

Hi man. No that's cool - I actually like talking about this stuff - but its always hard on forums as "context" is hard to say in words and things can be take wrongly. Yup to get back on track a little - I guess its not FREE anywhere. The point is there are countries that can make healthcare available with no/little out of pocket expense to anyone that requires it - all funded by the taxpayers. So why cant it be done here ?? :shrug: I'm no fan of any politician myself, but if I had to pick a devil it would probably be obama for at least trying to tackle some of this. Obviously the cost is huge - but again Id rather fund someone getting to take their child to doctor than funding for a "pool" or "recreation facility" in Baghdad. I just wonder what the war bought us ? Anyway - I'm definitely not in favor for bigger government, wish they would turn over most things to private and let it be. Problem is what happens when your mom dies of a heart transplant because said company uses the "cheapest" tools for the job from china, rather the recommended tools for performing the surgery. All for profit. Gets tricky. Who dictates that ? In then end I would just rather see more people have more ....... even if others including myself have to pay more (taxes ?) ........ its ridiculous to see these kids on TV running around with 1000 watches, 100000 cars and have no understanding what that means to the average family. Agree tho no idea what the solution is ......:ahhh:
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I wouldn't mind popping in on this conversation with an opinion on the "free health care" part of it if I may being i'm from Canada, a country that has this set up. I haven't really payed any attention to what your Gov't's free system is going to be like , but I can tell you this about ours. We have a huge shortage of doctors in the province I live in, one case here I know of is one doctor having over 3500 patients by himself, This doctor is in his eighties himself and who knows what will happen when he dies, to his patients. Wait times on our medical is at most times ridiculous, unless you have a good doctor that can push you in for tests, but that being said, if they suspect or know you have a life threatening issue, they are not as bad as some things. Ex: I have been on a waiting list since April of 2011 for an MRI for a sinus problem I have, and the doctor said he wanted to get one on me to rule out any tumours in my head or sinus passages. It's to the point now that if they do call me I'm going to ask if they're joking...i'd most likely be dead by now if it was a tumour ,would be my response.Doctors here get payed "ok", but honestly for what they do and the hours some of them put in, I don't blame them for coming across the border to the USA or other countries that offer a much larger bowel of gravy to them, and that's what is causing a shortage here. Treatments here.... here is my take on it compared to what I "hear" about the USA. Cancer : you go in, they do tests and find you have cancer, they look at your age, how severe they think it is, they basically look at a chart that groups you as well as any other person similar to you going through it, and say, "this is the treatment for this group of people". I'm told with the USA that they treat you as a specific case and look at the best treatment for you, for your body, giving different treatments between lets say Joe's cancer and Tom's cancer. Does that give a better survival rate, I don't know? My wife went through breast cancer 4 years ago at 37 years old, they gave her a mixture of chemo that most likely was the exact same mixture as the other person beside her getting treatments for maybe a different degree or stage of cancer, because it was for "that general catagory" of the disease. Personally, I think if you are a paying customer and can afford the treatments, you then get the one on one types of treatment for your type of cancer, that we have heard the USA can offer people, but again that comes with a sometimes financially ruining pricetag, unless you have insurance that covers most of it. Now, with all this being said, the cost associated with my wifes ordeal most likely would've financially burdened us for many many years (not that that would've mattered), so we are lucky we have "free " health care. My father had a heart attack 24 years ago, they did a few balloons to his arteries, when the small metal stint first came out onto the market that they insert to keep the artery open @ $4000 a pop, he had 2 inserted, no cost to him. He had hundreds of hospital visits, doctor visits, and tests throughout his last 24 years, and it didn't ruin him finanically because we have this system here. I'm sure if they had shown us a bill on him from start to the time he died last Sept, it would've been well over $200 k, but thats a guess. My 8 year old niece, brain tumour 3 years ago and they dealt with her for a solid year and a half, and are still doing things to her to get her back to rights. Without an exageration I bet that bill has to be over a half million for what I see them do for her so far. Some things had to be paid out of pocket, but her parents are still ok financially to my knowledge, all because of "free" health care. How is all this payed for ?...the taxpayer paying income taxes and also sales taxes. Sad part about that is most times it's the middle class earner that's paying most of the way for everyone, because the low income workers don't make enough to pay much for income tax and the rich have enough to be able to pay someone how to figure out how to get out of paying. I don't like paying taxes at all, but I never complain about paying the tax portion that goes towards health care for the simple fact of what it has done for my 3 family members so far. I hate paying taxes that our gov't throws away on moron induced decisions, but I wont go into that...to long of a conversation. Is our system good, is it bad, everyone will have an opinion, but I can say this..I went for a chest xray about two months ago and blood work, and not one cent came out of my pocket at the hospital or the doctors office when it all was done. I hope your system proves to be helpful for the people. On a last note, here's where there's a huge problem in our society IMO..a local hockey player from my area (Sidney Crosby) just got signed for a 104 million dollar deal I think it was for 10 years or something like that...and then you have a brain surgeon earning idk, maybe $125-150 K a year...where's the common sense in that? The hockey player isn't saving lives, the doctor sometimes is! There is no common sense anymore, that's the problem. That's my take

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Why can't it? For the same reason we can't tackle Social Security and Welfare. Its the political third rail that nobody wants to tackle.

For quality... The same problem exists in socialized medicine.

The difference there, is that everybodys mom who can't afford 100% private care gets the lowest bidder Chinese heart valve.

I would also argue that commercialized medicine fights poor quality service pretty well. Some of my family has had quite a bit of health problems, and they have found that the competition in hospitals is fierce for their business. At least their local hospitals keep pretty tight standards on a lot of things, (can't say how they are nationally...) as their margins are very dependent on their reputation. A smear campaign would really really mess up their business.

Plus, doctors tend to not want to kill their patients and will try their best to use the best... I don't see that happening with a mandated G.I. scaupel, heart valve, knee, etc thats good enough to pass whatever standard the regulating agency comes up with.

As for what people have, yeah, people are poor stewards. If they earned that money, tis their money, I don't deserve any of it. They are the ones that will have to answer to what they did with their lives, resources, and abilities. A lot of people have said that my truck is a useless waste of money as are my other interests, and that money could be better spent elsewhere if we all drove a Prius.

:think:

How about this John... Legal Reform. Tort Reform? So that the excessive cost of malpractice is reduced, and the cost of malpractice is the loss of ones ability to work or some other penalty? As it is, the doctors lose, but so do we and the insurance companies aren't evil either... They are just covering the doctor's butts financially as the docs want/need as the docs have families and mortgages too.

How about some cleaning up of how health care is billed out? I've been to the ER... and I can tell you, its amazing how much a few stitches and stuff can cost! And there are more than one charge depending on if you are insured and if you arent, and who you are insured by... Double charging individuals and insurance companies are rampant. All I am asking for here is a little honesty in pricing and billing... not too much to ask I think.

This would lower costs for insurance on both sides (doc and patient) and make things a bit more even on the hospitals side.

:shrug:

- - - Updated - - -

Dobie... Paragraphs? :pray:

Sorry. It hurts my eyes.

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Well I have got to sya something here. We in this country have needed health care reform for many decades. Obama care seems to me to be trying to control the cost of insurance. If we dont get control of the cost of health care, the cost of insurance is going to keep going up no matter what. Obama care and getting all the unisured to join in will increase the insurance pool but the cost of the care will soon out strip any andvantage that is brought to the table, and then it will start rising again. If the government is going to pick up the slack then taxes are going to go up to cover it. The last time I looked at taxes paid in Europe(maybe Canada, I dont know) their tax rate is higher than ours to help pay for it. I am willing to help take care of folks that genuinly need help. No one should have to do with out health care. But at what point do you draw the line. Someone has to pay for it and with the government involved it is all of us the pick up the tab. I just read an aricle in USA today that discussed the disparity in pricing for an MRI. the prices ranged from $250 to $2500, depending your insurance or whether you are poor, but have cash. There has to be some kind of happy medium on prices for care to help get that aspect under control. Take Lasik eye care for an example. When first brought on the market it was near $3k per eye. Most insurance does not cover this procedure, so it is in a market based service. It now only cost $250 to $300 an eye. This should appply to almost any thing, IMHO. I think tort reform and let the insurance companies cross state lines to sell ther product would help. This might not be a cure all, but i am all for anything that keeps the goverment out of control of my body.

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Keep govt. out my my house and out of my doctors office. Do you really think the govt can run anything? Everything it touches goes to h--- in a short matter of time. As for the border, come see for your self. All I can say is it aint what it used to be, it's a he-- of a lot worse.

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Keep govt. out my my house and out of my doctors office. Do you really think the govt can run anything? Everything it touches goes to h--- in a short matter of time. As for the border, come see for your self. All I can say is it aint what it used to be, it's a he-- of a lot worse.

As for the border, I am to far away. As for my house and my Doctors office I have to agree!!!
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Then should we keep govt out of banks too? I don't think the govt is in the dr's office anyway. The law requires you to have insurance because the supreme court said you will eventually need healthcare so you might as well be paid up. The argument is that you will be spending the money anyway so you are encouraged to spend it in a way that benefits everyone.

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... Do you really think the govt can run anything? ....

History has proven, it ya want it broken, give it to an engineer. If you want it totally screwed up ... give it to your elected officials ... they have a constant track record !

Also, our friends lives in Arizona and we worry about them. He was shot at on 'his' land early this year and now carries a rifle with him to check on the animals and the land. Hell of a way to live.

A great bit of info:

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

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I dont mind helping people out thats whats great about this country but I am real tired of helping people out that dont help themselves! I had my own buisiness for 22 years and it all went away with the NAFTA bill than I had to cowboy up and find a job it took awhile to find a decent one but I did. I am afraid for my children and grandchildren as there going to be paying for all these mistakes.........

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Then should we keep govt out of banks too? I don't think the govt is in the dr's office anyway. The law requires you to have insurance because the supreme court said you will eventually need healthcare so you might as well be paid up. The argument is that you will be spending the money anyway so you are encouraged to spend it in a way that benefits everyone.

I think the government is as much to blame for the banks with their everyone needs to own a home thing started under Clinton I beleive. So yes they must regulate many things in our lives, like it or not. I dont think the government is in my dr's office as of yet. But it does worry me they will be sometime in the future if we let them in. I cant argue with it being better to have everyone in the insurance pool, it does benefit all concerned. If health care cost keep rising as they have been, insurance cost cant do anything but go up to keep up. Even with every citizen covered the cost of the care just keeps rising and rising and in turn so does your premiums. I had my gall bladder removed about 5 years ago and ended up in an out of network hospital.(I should have done a better job on that). Any way it doubled my cost and the hospital was going to charge me near 40% more than they would have charged the insurance co. They did however let me pay the insurance co rate. The part I dont get is if I had walked in that hospital for the surgery with $100 bills in my hand, it would have cost me 40% more than going thru an insurance co. No claims to file, none of the BS to put up with, just plain old hard cash. Why should I have to pay more with cash than dealing with the insuranc co? The system needs a major tune up, there is just no rhyme or reason to it.
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