Yeap... The old VP44 gave up. Timing is stuck in full advancement rattle very hard and very little power. P0216 code is present. I pulled the Quadzilla and still present so I know the problem it's not Quadzilla related. It hits a state of limp mode won't power more than 40 MPH. At times it will clear up and run well then the timing goes back to full advancement pull the power way down. I did make it home but very slow ride. 

 

I can say without a doubt the Quadzilla only reports commanded timing, not actual timing. 

 

Time to make some calls to DAP in the morning... 

Edited April 9, 20178 yr by Mopar1973Man

well when you do get a new pump make sure to run it without Wiretap for at least a month.  Drive it HARD during that month to ensure you bring to light any rebuild issues.  Ask Trevor about his rebuilt pump...

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Called DAP (Jacob) and talked to him. He told me average life span is about 100-120k miles for VP44. When I told him I cleared 243k miles he was rather shocked. I'm looking at my options on pumps. Bad part is no matter what I'm going to lose my warranty on the pump because of the wire tap.

Pick up a set of 150's and run without the wiretap. I bet you would have close to the same power!

Might be true but the MPG number will not be as good with that big of an injector. Again im not in it for the power but the MPG. 

 

PRIORTY - Economy / MPG

3 hours ago, Me78569 said:

well when you do get a new pump make sure to run it without Wiretap for at least a month.  Drive it HARD during that month to ensure you bring to light any rebuild issues.  Ask Trevor about his rebuilt pump...

Yeah all 500 miles I got out of it???  Side note @Me78569, I think (actually am hoping) my dying issue is my IP relay...

3 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

I'm not exactly fond of Midwest Injection and some of the thing said about reasons of failures.

Huh, I'm pretty sure that's where my VP came from, since the pump came from the midwest and that's where the warranty return went...Hope I don't get another bad one.

7 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

I can't help but think all these vp44 failures at same time as testing V2 stuff. Not really wanted to make a connection just saying,  plus I'm kind of hooked on this new V2, hopefully there is no connection. 

 

X2 - Hasn't 3 trucks within the last 30 days killed their VP's all running Quads?  The software offers cool features but honestly it is doing stuff that wasn't previously done (isn't bad) but is effecting something.

I can say the Quadzilla wasn't the issue in my pump failures.  I've had three pumps in three weeks here, all had the same symptoms, and the Quadzilla tuning doesn't affect it.  Today I had the failure when the truck was in warmup mode, so it'll do it on the OEM tuning also.  

21 minutes ago, NightHawk said:

 

X2 - Hasn't 3 trucks within the last 30 days killed their VP's all running Quads?  The software offers cool features but honestly it is doing stuff that wasn't previously done (isn't bad) but is effecting something.

You gotta remember that NOTHING in the read or send section of the code has been changed.  The communication framework is the same as a decade ago.  The Quadzilla still speaks EXACTLY the same j1939 protocol that it did before V2.  

The Quadzilla IS NOT doing stuff that hasn't been done before.  Still keeping canbus fueling in the 0-4095 range, still keeping wiretap between 0- 2200 us, still keeping timing in the 0-30* range.  I cannot stress this enough, there is absolutely nothing different going on from the point of the ECM, or VP44.  The Only changes for V2 are in the calculation of how much fuel / timing to use at a given point.  The min's and maxes are unchanged.  Rather than the Quadzilla looking into a predefined map for a fueling % it looks at the user defined variable to see what % to use.  

like I said before the Old Quadzilla tunes are much more aggresive when it comes to timing,  The V2 tunes actually ask for significantly less timing than before.  

Compare the Datalogs I posted in the Smarty thread to the ones I've posted in the V2 thread, nothing different.  It is VERY easily blame the tuner, I understand that. Remember I've been running the V2 the longest here, I've prob flashed my box ~500 times at this point.  I've run code that was %100 backwards, IE asking for 3* timing at 3500 rpm.   4095 at 500 rpm etc.   

2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

The Quadzilla IS NOT doing stuff that hasn't been done before.

 

 

The Quadzilla is not doing anything differently that any other brand of tuner. Just better control over the existing timing and fueling. 

 

2 hours ago, NightHawk said:

 

X2 - Hasn't 3 trucks within the last 30 days killed their VP's all running Quads?  The software offers cool features but honestly it is doing stuff that wasn't previously done (isn't bad) but is effecting something.

 

 

There are 4 ways to kill a VP44...

 

1. Low fuel lubricity (>450 HFRR)

2. High AC noise levels (>0.1 AC volts)

3. Poor filtration

4. Low fuel pressure (<14 PSI)

 

Even Jacob was saying that wire tapping the VP44 will reduce the life of the pump. Like I pointed out to him I've been wire tapped for just about 240k miles and no issues till now. So I tend to call BS on the wire tap putting stress on the pump. Being that Jacob says the average life of a VP44 is about 70k to 120k miles. When I told him 243k miles on mine when it gave up he was shocked. Also everything he said would shorten the life of the pump I've ben doing. (Wire tapped and running 2 cycle oil)

 

 

I feel it is import to stress that the quadzilla is even controlling timing and fueling in the exact same manner as any other tuner.  There is no reinventing the wheel going on, only thing that is different is the user sets the variable in the code to change the fueling, rather than using a built in map.  

 

Rather than doing a 1 map fits all the Quadzilla allows the end user to set the variable.  

 

 

Does this still mean your vulcan 60hp injectors are toast? 

5 minutes ago, CTcummins24V said:

Does this still mean your vulcan 60hp injectors are toast? 

There in DAP core pile by now and been rebuilt and living a new life in someone else's truck.

Edited April 10, 20178 yr by Mopar1973Man

P-Pump!!!

 

 

 

I had to. 

 

Hope she's back on the road ASAP, Mike, and the next one lasts 1/4 million miles.

Edited April 11, 20178 yr by Texas CTD

9 minutes ago, Texas CTD said:

P-Pump!!!

 

No. 

10 minutes ago, Texas CTD said:

had to. 

 

So did I.  

 

No biggy. Just need the pump. I've changed enough VP44's to do it now in about 1.5 hours. Easy peasy job. 

6 hours ago, Me78569 said:

It is VERY easily blame the tuner, I understand that.

After being in the Aftermarket industry for over 12 years I've heard that statement from customers thousands of times!!! I totally call BS when people say a tuner or "chip"(old school) messed something up. They may magnify a pre-existing (ie: failing injectors or poor fuel pressure) condition but I have yet to see something fail that wasn't inevitable or misused. On that note I can wait to get my Quadzilla in my hands and on my truck 

Edited April 11, 20178 yr by BBHD

Or in Mike's case a VP well past its prime. Close to double an expected life expectancy. After reading what Jacob (DAP) said mine is well over that life span at 180K. Installed the current pump at 217k and now have 397K. I have to agree it is not the Quad. The VP is a wearable part just like anything else and yes they can fail out of the box just like anything else.

7 hours ago, NightHawk said:

 

X2 - Hasn't 3 trucks within the last 30 days killed their VP's all running Quads?  The software offers cool features but honestly it is doing stuff that wasn't previously done (isn't bad) but is effecting something.

Another thing to consider is the type of failure. If @trreed's did fail, it was the PSG. @Mopar1973Man's was the timing piston getting stuck. Mine was the internals of the pump grenading. 3 COMPLETELY different type of failures

The only one that bewilders me is mine. Died for no reason.

Moparman's was well past due.

Trevor's was fed with a stock pump for a LONG time while he had a smarty on it. 

9 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Might be true but the MPG number will not be as good with that big of an injector. Again im not in it for the power but the MPG. 

 

PRIORTY - Economy / MPG

If I can get 22 with 7x.013's, lifted front end, big bumper, bigger tires, etc. I have no doubt you could clear 25-28 easily with 150's  

The Key here is we play within the VP44 world.    Our trucks are not like CR trucks, you can't just command anything you want...doesn't work.  The ECM does not control the fueling solenoid directly, same for the timing solenoid, rather it asks the VP44 to do a 0-100% of duration on both using a Fueling message that the VP44 decodes and follows. The way it asks for this is Via the canbus network. 

 

Rules to play by for the VP44 to work.  If your fueling command is not normal to the below stucture then nothing happens. 

 

Canbus fueling command needs to be between 0-4095 

timing command needs to be within 0-4095, but only 0-3800ish or 0*-~30*

 

 

So how it works with a Quadzilla Type tuner

 

1. ECM calculates how much fueling and timing to ask for based on a multiple sensor inputs

2. ECM packs those commands into the Canbus Fueling message Green is fueling Blue is timing

Quote

55 59 20 00 00 00 88 cb 00 00 00 a9 05 22 0d

3.Quadzilla reads that data string and alters it using user input, note it still has to play by the above rules or the vp44 won't be able to follow the command.

4. VP44 reads the command and decodes the fueling and timing message to be a duration for both solenoids.

 

Again none of those steps have changed with the V2 tuning.  Look at the Data Logs I posted of the smarty S03, and compare them to the data logs I did of the Quadzilla on various tunes.  It is plain as day that the smarty is more fuel and timing aggressive as it just maxes out fueling and puts timing at or above 18*

 

If you want to know more jdonoghue figured this out nearly a decade ago with his work.  Just google his name followed by VP44 and you will see.

21 minutes ago, TFaoro said:

Another thing to consider is the type of failure. If @trreed's did fail, it was the PSG.

Trevor's was fed with a stock pump for a LONG time while he had a smarty on it. 

Yes, but you can't forget a brand new pump and a different PSG on my original pump did the exact same thing the original VP did.  I don't think my pump failed, but the relay or something else in the wiring was causing my issues.

@Mopar1973Man hope you get the Cummins on the road very shortly. 120k?? That number seems low to me. I am at 270k with the original VP44. I guess I consider myself lucky at this point. Had a scare a few weeks ago with a slight dead pedal issue but it ended up being 122 code which a new Timbo APPS solved.

I just realized that I'm already for a tappet cover gasket install. I'll have the VP44 out and just got to pull the ECM and filter and install. I've already got the gasket laying on the workbench in the shop. I guess I better have my camera ready as well and refresh a VP44 install article and tappet gasket install.