Sad but true case about aftermarket diesel tuning. I for 1 will never guarantee my work on a vehicle equipped with aftermarket programming. I've seen too many windowed engine blocks of newer CR diesels like the Power Joke 6.4 and 6.7, Cummins 5.9 and 6.7, and all models of the Dirtymax from broken connecting rods which I'm 110% convinced too far advanced injection timing caused. 

 

 

Don’t know if anyone here is aware of it or not, but Auto Computer Specialists will not honor their warranty on ECM if you have a tuner installed. 

8 hours ago, 04Mach1 said:

 I for 1 will never guarantee my work on a vehicle equipped with aftermarket programming. 

 

 

 

I don't think this is front page news, IF, the repair can be related to the tuner. What about unrelated tuner repairs, does the above apply in your shop?

Are they differences to the CR engines compared to the VP trucks contributing to this? I ask since you only mention CR engines in your post.

I think the warranty issue is the same for both CR and VP trucks, but CR engines are more prone to damage.

 

It kinda like being a cannibul... the engine eats itself up and the same reason you don't eat chicken, right Dripley?

1 hour ago, JAG1 said:

It kinda like being a cannibul... the engine eats itself up and the same reason you don't eat chicken, right Dripley?

I had crispy chicken tacos for supper the other night and chicken salad in the refer. Chickens are good in more ways than one.

 

I was more curious if there is something different internally in the CR engines that made them more susceptible to failure than a VP engine. Or is the fuel delivery system more at fault or both? 

Edited January 12, 20196 yr by dripley

2 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

 

I don't think this is front page news, IF, the repair can be related to the tuner. What about unrelated tuner repairs, does the above apply in your shop?

I would say it's probably front page news for 90% of ignorant diesel vehicle owners. I will not give warranty on anything when I detect aftermarket tuning is being used because there is not a single part of the vehicle that doesn't have additional stress put on it from the increase of power. The increased power in most cases stresses parts like the chassis, transmission, and differentials past their designed capacity.

 

Tuner = brake light warranty, as soon as I see brake lights there is no warranty on anything when I detect a tuner.

 

As far as catastrophic engine failure caused by injection timing is of greater occurrence on common rail engines because timing can be retarded or advanced past the possible capabilities of the VP. 

1 hour ago, 04Mach1 said:

 

Tuner = brake light warranty, as soon as I see brake lights there is no warranty on anything when I detect a tuner.

 

 

That works for me...90% huh?

12 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

 

That works for me...90% huh?

Yeah. I figured I could be generous and give the other 10% the benefit of the doubt.

 

That 10% would be people like us that have reliable antique diesel engines that get driven every day.

2 hours ago, 04Mach1 said:

 

Tuner = brake light warranty, as soon as I see brake lights there is no warranty on anything when I detect a tuner.

I like that. Glad you explained it. 

I'm just trying to understand what 8 valver he's referring to at 2:15

4 hours ago, dripley said:

I was more curious if there is something different internally in the CR engines that made them more susceptible to failure than a VP engine. Or is the fuel delivery system more at fault or both? 

 

Lots more available power on a stock fuel system, and very easy to mis-tune since there is a pilot. Duration can be programmed to be too long easily, etc... Just more ways to mess it up. They also start at more power than VP trucks, aside from 03-04 Cali motors. 

 

Often times the pilot timing/quantity isn't adjusted to match the main timing/quantity and you end up with too much pilot being injected too soon (50°+ BTDC is a number that's easily obtainable with a stock pilot map). 

 

People also think about timing like they would a VP or P-pump, but it's just not the same. 

 

On a VP or P-Pump the timing is when the injection process starts at the injection pump. There are several degrees lost to metering, pressurizing, and overcoming pop pressure before fuel enters the cylinder. 

 

On a CR the timing is the point in which the injector opens and fuel enters the cylinder. The fuel is already at peak pressure which will increase customization and decrease ignition delay. 

 

Consider my cruise timing of 14.5° without a pilot compared to M1973M at around 20-21° (going from memory). With the differences in fuel systems there probably isn't much difference in when the fuel actually enters the cylinder. With a pilot I don't run more than 8° for cruise timing. 

 

Forgot to add.. the 04.5-07 pistons are not a forgiving design. Most re-builders are swapping to 03-04 style pistons on 04.5-07 builds. 

 

Edited January 12, 20196 yr by AH64ID

@AH64ID great explanation on injection timing. I was trying to figure out a non-technical easy to understand way of explaining why improper tuning will cause catastrophic engine failure especially in common rail diesel engines.

 

AND THIS IS THE IGNORANT 90% OF DIESEL OWNERS... 

 

These trucks are retarded, but if you have money to waste they are fun. To each their own. 

19 hours ago, 04Mach1 said:

I would say it's probably front page news for 90% of ignorant diesel vehicle owners. 

Tuner = brake light warranty, as soon as I see brake lights there is no warranty on anything when I detect a tuner.

 

 

Why would you shoot yourself in the foot? That might work in Denver with the huge customer base, but not here in small town USA, where you need repeat customers and word of mouth to grow your business.

 

Case in point: There are numerous repair items that have nothing to do with a tuner, such as a water pump or alternator. Yet, most vendors offer a lifetime warranty on those items. Does your blanket warranty still apply? And if so, how do you explain/justify your stand to the customer?

10 hours ago, 04Mach1 said:

@AH64ID great explanation on injection timing. I was trying to figure out a non-technical easy to understand way of explaining why improper tuning will cause catastrophic engine failure especially in common rail diesel engines.

 

AND THIS IS THE IGNORANT 90% OF DIESEL OWNERS... 

 

@AH64ID did a great explaining it even for me who has never touched a CR truck. I just got to add a little more knowledge to the noggin. And thats a good thing.

17 hours ago, AH64ID said:

Consider my cruise timing of 14.5° without a pilot compared to M1973M at around 20-21° (going from memory). With the differences in fuel systems there probably isn't much difference in when the fuel actually enters the cylinder. With a pilot I don't run more than 8° for cruise timing. 

 

Valid point. Being I'm still learning more. With winter cetane I'm optimal around 18-19° at 2k going summer and lower cetane I can head back up to the 19-20° range. Takes a while to spot the negative torque. Each truck might start it at a different degree of timing, pop pressure of the injectors etc. Being I'm seriously questioning my injector pop pressure right now it makes an impact in my tune and how much timing I'm going to give. 

4 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

 

Why would you shoot yourself in the foot? That might work in Denver with the huge customer base, but not here in small town USA, where you need repeat customers and word of mouth to grow your business.

 

Case in point: There are numerous repair items that have nothing to do with a tuner, such as a water pump or alternator. Yet, most vendors offer a lifetime warranty on those items. Does your blanket warranty still apply? And if so, how do you explain/justify your stand to the customer?

 

The part is warranted but let's just use Napa for example will not reimburse labor. In the case of an alternator, starter, or water pump I would give a 30 day labor warranty and work for free to replace the failed chain store part, after 30 days I would be charging $110 a hour to replace the failed chain parts store.

 

Now Cummins on the other hand doesn't offer lifetime warranty on their parts but will pay labor if their parts fail during the warranty period.

 

Where I worked in Milan, NM the customer base primarily consisted of OTR trucks that were not local to the shop and Peabody Energy mining vehicles. The local customer base was maybe 3-4 customers a year which makes a relaxed warranty policy tough to justify.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cm+mechanical+milan+nm&oq=cm&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j69i60l3j35i39.2274j0j7&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

39 minutes ago, 04Mach1 said:

 

The part is warranted but let's just use Napa for example will not reimburse labor. In the case of an alternator, starter, or water pump I would give a 30 day labor warranty and work for free to replace the failed chain store part, after 30 days I would be charging $110 a hour to replace the failed chain parts store.

 

Now Cummins on the other hand doesn't offer lifetime warranty on their parts but will pay labor if their parts fail during the warranty period.

 

Where I worked in Milan, NM the customer base primarily consisted of OTR trucks that were not local to the shop and Peabody Energy mining vehicles. The local customer base was maybe 3-4 customers a year which makes a relaxed warranty policy tough to justify.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cm+mechanical+milan+nm&oq=cm&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j69i60l3j35i39.2274j0j7&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

 

Thanks, I feel better now. I have seen your work, so I know a warranty would be a no brainer for you. I totally understand, anything related to a tuner, would be nil, as it should be.

On 1/11/2019 at 11:33 PM, 04Mach1 said:

Sad but true case about aftermarket diesel tuning. I for 1 will never guarantee my work on a vehicle equipped with aftermarket programming. I've seen too many windowed engine blocks of newer CR diesels like the Power Joke 6.4 and 6.7, Cummins 5.9 and 6.7, and all models of the Dirtymax from broken connecting rods which I'm 110% convinced too far advanced injection timing caused.

 

See post below?

 

On 1/12/2019 at 10:08 AM, dripley said:

Are they differences to the CR engines compared to the VP trucks contributing to this? I ask since you only mention CR engines in your post.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the cam profile on the CR trucks also play a roll in blowing the head gaskets? I have always believed that the in-cylinder EGR that was done with the the aggressive cam profile on the exhaust side was causing pressure spikes?

 

 

On 1/12/2019 at 1:19 AM, Royal Squire said:

Don’t know if anyone here is aware of it or not, but Auto Computer Specialists will not honor their warranty on ECM if you have a tuner installed. 

 

Can you tell me where you got this from, I believe if this si true I should update my article to reflect this.

8 hours ago, pepsi71ocean said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the cam profile on the CR trucks also play a roll in blowing the head gaskets? I have always believed that the in-cylinder EGR that was done with the the aggressive cam profile on the exhaust side was causing pressure spikes?

 

5.9's don't really have a HG issue, and the CR 5.9's have one of the worst OEM cam profiles ever... if not the worst. Then again, I've heard the 6.7 and 5.9 CR's use the same grind, thou the part numbers are different. There was also some discussion years ago about the 03-04 cam vs the 04.5-07 cam being different and part of the reason the 03-04's were cleaner and more efficient but the 03 and 04.5 use the same part number and the builders I've talked to say they are the same. 

The cam profile was designed to create an in-cylinder EGR in lieu of having an external EGR, which in theory is a good idea. The intake duration is the longest of any ISB in a Dodge/Ram and the exhaust duration is the shortest. This really reduces flow thru the cylinder, as does the very restrictive turbine housing. 

 

 

All that being said the CR's that have HG issues are the 6.7's with too much timing or improper tuning. The 6.7 has Siamese cylinders so there is less HG materiel between the cylinders and with stock head bolt torque it's quite easy to blow the HG.