Jump to content
  • Welcome To Mopar1973Man.Com

    We can see that your guest and been lurking about. When you register on the Mopar1973Man.Com site you'll be able to interact with all the other members. This is the most friendliest Cummins forum you'll ever join. Take the time right now and  REGISTER  on the Mopar1973Man.Com this will open up many more options and functions on the website. Everyone is very friendly and helpful just ask questions and everyone will help you out the best they can. 

Sign in to follow this  
bms231

Front Crank Seal Help .... and show and tell of what the dealer did

Recommended Posts

First, my question.  I have her all torn down to the point where I just have to remove the timing cover.  Fingers crossed no grooves on crank.  222K on the clock.

 

I bought a cummins seal at the dealer.  Says cummins on the part. 

 

Question..... which way is OUT? 

 

Logic tells me this side should face INWARD towards the crank:

2016-04-03%2019.02.18_zpsxr5nc1ct.jpg

 

And this side OUTWARD facing away from the crank:

2016-04-03%2019.02.11_zpsaigiwyou.jpg

 

Reasoning, the second picture has a rotational marker.  when facing you it is clockwise.  when facing the front of the truck, the crank turns clockwise.

 

Why am I asking?  bc the plastic alignment piece is conical (cone shaped).  you have to pull tight from the front and it will actually expand the inside of the seal out a good bit.  i assume this is so the seal will fit over the crank shaft nose.

 

You would literally have to pull this cone through the seal by pulling it up through the seal in this photo correct?

2016-04-03%2020.05.10_zpshzb9sgkb.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

btw, I am doing this via the dodge service manual which says install in the cover first.  i have no depth tool so i am going to have to wing it and hope.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this is what the dealer did to me...... twice.  he put it in the wrong way and not only did he do that he put on gray silicone rtv on both the inside and outside of the seal.  no no no no no!

 

right hand side of the photo also broke the lip the seal goes into. before i took this apart he told me to buy a new cover b/c he thinks it was warped.  ummmm.... or u broke it.

 

2016-04-02%2017.41.36_zps9ixyehf5.jpg
 

 

2016-04-02%2017.41.43_zps65merzct.jpg

 

2016-04-02%2017.41.03_zpsauiaohhr.jpg

 

This one you can see how this is really installed backwards:

2016-04-02%2017.41.06_zpsatjfkppv.jpg

 

 

moparman you may know this thread from another forum.  i got banned b/c i was upset and cursed with stars to filter the words.  no warning no nothing.  just banned.  still need help though.  this has been going on for 4 months.

Edited by bms231

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got banned from a forum too because I was mad about a new $23,000 camper with so many problems. You would not believe how many people joined the 'click' to talk bad about me and I was the one who got the bill of goods to fix everything.

 

I don't think you can be banned around here we just fully understand and with limitless effort try and solve the issue.

Welcome to the forum and I know you will get an answer soon here boss.

Edited by JAG1
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your correct on the seal placement. Just that I typically remove the cover and drive the seal in. Now take notice to the position of any old grooves. I'm sure there is. The plastic sleeve is to get the seal started over the crank once the cover is in place you pull the plastic sleeve out.

 

Edit I didn't realize till now that seal is in backwards. :thud: No wonder it leaks.

Edited by Mopar1973Man
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yup. he did every possible thing wrong. 

 

I saw the other thread on here about the seal. my only issue is everyone seems to use a different seal with sleeve. I will probably have to once I see the crank tmrw. 

 

we all agree... seal installed in cover first?

 

I read somewhere depth doesn't matter as long as ur not in an existing groove. 

Edited by bms231

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It gets better.  not only did he damage the timing cover...

 

he marred the surface of the crank.  i don't know where to go from here.  I am stuck.

 

2016-04-04%2008.09.42_zpsux2weial.jpg2016-04-04%2008.09.16_zpscj4mbouq.jpg

 

This one is the most upsetting.  I can't even get a seal on here w/o sharp metal cutting it.  I assume I have to file this down, but it still leaves big pits.

 

2016-04-04%2008.18.56_zpsqee375m9.jpg

I seriously have no clue where to go from here.

 

I see this:

http://puredieselpower.com/dodge-products/03-07-dodge-5.9l-cummins-front-crank-seal-with-speedy-sleeve.html

 

I was honestly thinking of using this autozone sleeve.  use a little bearing mount to mount it to the crank.  then use the stock cummins seal over it.

 

http://www.autozone.com/internal-engine/crankshaft-seal/duralast-crankshaft-seal/dodge/ram-2500-3-4-ton-2wd/2001/6-cylinders-7-5-9l-turbo-diesel/630211_726041_4222/?checkfit=true

 

 

 

I saw this on another thread.... is this thing even seated far enough back?  Does the seal run along the backside lip or anywhere on the "repaired" sleeve portion.  I assume the later.

 

002.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Buzzinhalfdozen said:

The first thing I would do is have a heated conversation with the caveman that did that work. 

You'll have to get the seal/sleeve kit. I don't think a stock sized seal is meant to fit over a repair sleeve. 

 

 

it's kinda like which kit though.  cummins has one.  mahle has one.  tst or something like that has one.  i guess cummins is the best option, but the dealer doesnt have a part # on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would take a flat file and smooth the nicks out of the crank then install a speedy sleeve and order a new seal to fit the sleeved crank. Poor man method would be to clean the nick up with a file and lightly sand the crank with light grit make sure there is no burrs then install the seal.

Edited by Mopar1973Man
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, bms231 said:

 

it's kinda like which kit though.  cummins has one.  mahle has one.  tst or something like that has one.  i guess cummins is the best option, but the dealer doesnt have a part # on it.

I don't have much experience with these so I can't comment on which is best. Try calling a cummins dealer instead of the dodge dealer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Buzzinhalfdozen said:

I don't have much experience with these so I can't comment on which is best. Try calling a cummins dealer instead of the dodge dealer. 

 

 

lol yea i was doing that as i typed.  cummins was like "we stopped making that in 2007."  i had to get my engine serial number and give them the part number i thought was right (3802820) before they confirmed it was right.  *face palm

this is funny...

http://www.dieselpartsdirect.com/DS3802820

 

20 dollars... or 124 dollars.... same product descriptions.  man this is so frustrating. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, bms231 said:

 

 

lol yea i was doing that as i typed.  cummins was like "we stopped making that in 2007."  i had to get my engine serial number and give them the part number i thought was right (3802820) before they confirmed it was right.  *face palm

this is funny...

http://www.dieselpartsdirect.com/DS3802820

 

20 dollars... or 124 dollars.... same product descriptions.  man this is so frustrating. 

http://m.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Cummins-Front-Main-Crankshaft-Oil-Seal-with-Wear-Sleeve-89-Up-Dodge-3802820-/191768405010?nav=SEARCH

I'd go with this one just because it says cummins on it. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Buzzinhalfdozen said:

 

 

i called.  so funny.  they said one is aftermarket and they are the "same."  i asked if it comes w/ the depth tool.  crickets.

 

For the money, i will order both.  practice set! 

 

thanks guys.  #frustrated

 

 

holy crap just realized ur ebay link!  sweet!

11 minutes ago, Buzzinhalfdozen said:

 

 

ur my friggin parts hero man!  i ordered two just to be safe.

 

would be funny as hell if he put the aftermarket one in a cummins box.  would be my life.

Edited by bms231

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be on that dealer like white on rice man.  i'd prob drive my truck to the dealer and pull the cover in front of one of the bays that guy worked on.   Then I would drag the service manager out and have the tech explain what you are finding......Even if it was damaged when he started he should have told you.

 

 

 

I would hate to be in your position.    I hope it works out.

Edited by Me78569
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just hope my gear housing isn't cracked.  He had those bolts in over 75ft lbs.  Also got all kinds of ultra black on the threads before putting them in which can cause hydro locking and cracking of the cover according to another tech. 

 

I told the service guy (not manager... that comes wednesday) that this guy basically grenaded my truck.  he literally caused more damage than the truck is worth if he cracked the gear case.

Edited by bms231

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wow, that is quite the hack job of a seal replacement. Ive done a couple of these and the second one went so smooth from learning from mistakes on the first one.

 

If you file those nicks down and clean it up I'm sure a speedy sleeve should fix that. ( I got a speedy sleeve and seal through local cummins dealer.) and you have to use seal that comes with the sleeve, factory seal isn't going to stretch over it.

 

when installing seal put your timing cover on a work bench and place some wood block under it to support while driving seal down or you will warp it, if it aint already.

 

a trick I learned when installing back on the gear case is to get four metric bolts about 8"  long or so and use them as studs to help guide cover on ( since its going to be silicon  gasket material on it and you don't want to make a mess of it.the studs also help hold it while sliding seal over new sleeve.

Also a trick I got off another forum is the credit card trick. ( go ask the wife for hers if you can, Ha Ha) take card and cut it length wise, so you have a strip about 1/2" wide the length of card. when you get seal next to the new sleeve just stick card in their and work around shaft as you slide the cover in place.you are just placing the lip of seal in the right position when doing this. 

hope this helps

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Something to take notice to... Look at the pictures again the seal is installed backwards.

Front side.
3937111.png

That the back side lip.

2016-04-02%2017.41.49_zpsk5z5c5o6.jpg

 

Backisde...

7495141304071.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is what I initially thought.  I am not 100% sure now when I pulled the cover off I took photos.

 

Rear of the cover:

2016-04-04%2008.23.31_zpsmyznlvpv.jpg

 

 

this is the front of the cover:

2016-04-04%2008.24.28_zpsivzp98vv.jpg

While I am in there........ I have the "updated case" with the step up around the KDP.  Everyone freaks about the KDP and says do it anyways... but really w/ the updated case it is even necessary? 

 

Someone said in his 1999 24v KDP got him.... yea b/c it didn't have the updated case.

 

kdp.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i did a genuine cummins speedy sleeve myself on my rebuild as the crank had a groove in it. i used the cummins seal install tool and pounded away to get the seal started and after a bit of finesse it went in. The tool will bottom out on the cover and thats when its seated all the way. Install was easy, with the plastic install tool in the seal, slip it over the crankand push the cover on. Note the seal goes on dry and dust free. I have had no issues with mine since rebuild. It was weeping a little as the groove was pronounced and the original seal was worn.

oh and it looks like the seal is installed correct, but how it was installed (from the rear or with improper tool) could have caused the seal to become warped or damaged allowing leakage. Plus that RTV is not helping...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, CUMMINSDIESELPWR said:

i did a genuine cummins speedy sleeve myself on my rebuild as the crank had a groove in it. i used the cummins seal install tool and pounded away to get the seal started and after a bit of finesse it went in. The tool will bottom out on the cover and thats when its seated all the way. Install was easy, with the plastic install tool in the seal, slip it over the crankand push the cover on. Note the seal goes on dry and dust free. I have had no issues with mine since rebuild. It was weeping a little as the groove was pronounced and the original seal was worn.

oh and it looks like the seal is installed correct, but how it was installed (from the rear or with improper tool) could have caused the seal to become warped or damaged allowing leakage. Plus that RTV is not helping...

 

 

thanks for the tips.  getting the speedy sleeve on is what i worry about.  no tool to do it other than hammer and 2x4.  the sleeve too i hear is supposed to go on dry.  i had someone tell me you are supposed to use red loctite on the crank shaft before putting the speedy sleeve on to fill in all the grooves and secure the sleeve to the crank.  truth?  i mean makes sense... u dont want the speedy sleeve rotating. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the sleeve i didnt use a 2x4. and i dont suggest using a 2x4. the sleeve will best go on one way and basically gently tap it in a

circle to seat it.  using a 2x4 will get it off center and ruin it etc etc. it took me about 25-30 minutes of gently tapping it on the crank all the way till its flush on the front. then install front seal onto cover and install cover.

iirc the speedy sleeve will have a beveled side and that side goes on first then gently tap it in

circles to seat. if it doesnt go on just a tad at first by hand, flip it over and try to push it on by hand, it should start itself slightly on its own.

 

oh and locktite on the speedy sleeve, never heard it. its a interference fit (sleeve fits tight on its own) and i have over 3-4000 miles on my rebuild no issues. Also the damper will keep it from walking forward. I highly doubt the steel on steel friction fit will come loose due to the slight friction of the seal.

 

zoom in on the crank and you will see the thickness of the speedy sleeve. it was about 1/8" thick. the shop installed a speedy sleeve that was paper thin and i removed it and installed the

cummins thicker speedy sleeve with matching seal. i also recommend test fitting the seal onto the speedy sleeve before hand to ensure it all is properly fitting then install everything. "measure twice cut once thing"

IMG_6093.JPG

Edited by CUMMINSDIESELPWR
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would help a bunch to make sure there is no debris or high spots in the crank. Like your little dings in the tip I would take a machine file and knock them down a bit. Take some emery cloth and "lightly" sand the crank where the sleeve is going. This just makes sure there is no residue or damaged metal to hang up your installation. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most speedy sleeves come with the install tool which basically consists of a stainless steel cup that is what you pound on.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Wild and Free said:

Most speedy sleeves come with the install tool which basically consists of a stainless steel cup that is what you pound on.

mine didnt, thus why i tapped gently to seat it without ruining it. went well actually, but i do recommend the tool if possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  



×
×
  • Create New...