Cold... Very cold

[kzimmer]

When I had my 7x.014's set at 340 bar, cold starting definitely improved. However, it was never this cold. The extreme cold may have different effects, possibly even related to fuel viscosity.

 

So around 5pm I got fed up. No ether in the garage. But I had some wd40. Now before I get lit on fire here, wd40 is a lot less violent than ether. I've also never used any kind of starting aid on this truck. Never needed it (another reason why I think it's directly related to pop pressuere).

 

I removed the rubber hump hose from the intake elbow. Turned the key on first to let the grid heaters run so they wouldn't ignite the wd40. Gave two very small shots, and it woke up like it was summer. Frustrating day. But lessons learned.

 

Fyi it's -28 c and going down to -31 tonight. Gross. Got the remote start remote sitting beside my night stand. The wife's not going to like this... Haha.

Edited December 26, 2017 by kzimmer

[dripley]

3 hours ago, AH64ID said:

I just did some reading on TSB 18-015-00. It sounds like it dropped “key on” voltage to 50% and then applied no voltage during cranking. This was to help fix a long crank issue, especially with #1 and/or cold weather. 

 

@Mopar1973Man, are you tracking something different for that TSB? 

 

I wonder how that relates to an aftermarket pump that uses the OEM circuit to control a really and not a pump. A relay will close on 1/2 voltage and give full voltage to the pump. 

If i crank mine with the vp disabled I see low fluctuating pressure. I was under the impression the ECM cycled the lift pump power on and off quickly to reduce the pressure for cranking. I even think I have heard the relay clicking on and off before, though my ears are not the best.

 On a stock lift pump there is no relay so 50% voltage would lower the pressure.

[Mopar1973Man]

Exactly. 50/50 on and off. It's still 12 volt signal just turned off briefly.

[AH64ID]

5 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Exactly. 50/50 on and off. It's still 12 volt signal just turned off briefly.

 

During crank or before crank? Lots of info on the TSB states no lift pump operation during crank. 

[Mopar1973Man]

During... Here is a video showing the pulse on / off.. You will see the needle pulse with the on/off. Then when I let off the key the needle snaps to full 15 PSI which is full power.

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[AH64ID]

Interesting. 

 

That made me wonder what UDC shows for that. 

 

LP On Cranking 0.02 seconds

LP Off Cranking 0.18 seconds

 

So to me that says it cranks for .02 then off for .18, and repeat. 

[TFaoro]

18 hours ago, AH64ID said:

I've never cycled mine more than once, but the 3rd gen keeps it on longer as it gets colder. Is the 2nd gen the same way?

 

I also figure that the cranking speed is just as, if not more, important that warm air. If 3 cycles zaps the batteries and you lose 100 rpm on cranking it might not fire regardless of intake temp. 

 

Just a thought.

You can see how long the grids will stay on at what temperature in UDC Pro for the 2nd gens (IIRC)

I wonder what the 4th gens are? It was 7F this morning and my 4th gen didn't keep the grids on for more than 5 seconds. Made it start a bit rough before smoothing out. Maybe this will be my excuse for getting a RaceMe and tuning it  

13 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

During... Here is a video showing the pulse on / off.. You will see the needle pulse with the on/off. Then when I let off the key the needle snaps to full 15 PSI which is full power.

 

Exactly what mine does even without the VP44.

[AH64ID]

Just now, TFaoro said:

You can see how long the grids will stay on at what temperature in UDC Pro for the 2nd gens (IIRC)

 

That's not a 2nd gen table... at least that I can see. 

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

This is the only thing I could find for grid heater times. 

[TFaoro]

4 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

 

That's not a 2nd gen table... at least that I can see. 

 

 

I'll have to take a looksie when I get home. For some reason I remember it, but I have been playing with 3rd gens too so I might be confusing them. 

[dripley]

That is exactly how mine acts.

[Me78569]

here ya go

[WiscoRedkneck]

-8F starts but not like summer time....  no block heater and my lift pump is on a relay and runs full PSI once key is on no fluctuation in fuel pressure, bad ECM output.

That being said I have to cycle grids twice she fires first time every time but dies after 2 seconds cycle grids hit it again and it fires off and stays running.  Now I'm pretty sure it over advances timing as it sits there loping for a minute or two but not sure.

Due to all the other electric crap I have in my truck I actually don't run two cranking batteries the driver's side battery is a starter and the passenger side is a deep cycle.  It cranks over a little slower than with two starters (at least it seams)but also seams to not be bothered if the radios are left on for a few hours.

I had starting problems last year in cold weather I found good batteries and cables plus good fuel is all you need to run to -30f or more...

 

One trick I've adopted in winter is every time I fill up my truck I take a sample of that fuel and put it into a glass jar and sit it on my porch next tank I get I switch out the bottle this tells me what type of fuel I got in the truck and if the fuel station screwed up. Must be clear glass cuz then you can see if water separates out as well.

[Mopar1973Man]

Right out of the dodge FSM...

• To prevent engine from starting, remove fuel system relay (fuel injection pump relay). Relay is located in Power Distribution Center (PDC). Refer to label under PDC cover for relay location.
• Using key, crank engine over while observing gauge. Pressure should be 5–7 psi.
• Re-install fuel system relay to PDC.
• Start engine and record fuel pressure. Pressure should be a minimum of 69 kPa (10 psi) at idle speed.

We all know that 10 PSI isn't enough at idle. I know the cranking pressure spec listed is actually a minimum of 7 PSI.

[Me78569]

13 minutes ago, WiscoRedkneck said:

-8F starts but not like summer time....  no block heater and my lift pump is on a relay and runs full PSI once key is on no fluctuation in fuel pressure, bad ECM output.

That being said I have to cycle grids twice she fires first time every time but dies after 2 seconds cycle grids hit it again and it fires off and stays running.  Now I'm pretty sure it over advances timing as it sits there loping for a minute or two but not sure.

Due to all the other electric crap I have in my truck I actually don't run two cranking batteries the driver's side battery is a starter and the passenger side is a deep cycle.  It cranks over a little slower than with two starters (at least it seams)but also seams to not be bothered if the radios are left on for a few hours.

I had starting problems last year in cold weather I found good batteries and cables plus good fuel is all you need to run to -30f or more...

 

One trick I've adopted in winter is every time I fill up my truck I take a sample of that fuel and put it into a glass jar and sit it on my porch next tank I get I switch out the bottle this tells me what type of fuel I got in the truck and if the fuel station screwed up. Must be clear glass cuz then you can see if water separates out as well.

Cranking timing is ~17* then timing when cold  is  higher based on ECT.  It a roughly 6* over stock bump until ect are near 160*f.  
 

[AH64ID]

1 hour ago, Me78569 said:

here ya go

 

So the 2002 stock file I was looking at didn't have that table, but I found it in a 1998 stock file. Interesting. 

 

45 seconds below -20°, I know I wouldn't be dual cycling that! I actually think there is plenty of time built in there and I wouldn't be dual cycling at any temperature. 

 

2 hours ago, TFaoro said:

I wonder what the 4th gens are? It was 7F this morning and my 4th gen didn't keep the grids on for more than 5 seconds.

 

Not sure. I don't see the table for 2014 in UDC. 

 

2009 is the same as my 2005. 

 

 

 

Here is what I run, more starting aid based and less emissions based. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, WiscoRedkneck said:

Due to all the other electric crap I have in my truck I actually don't run two cranking batteries the driver's side battery is a starter and the passenger side is a deep cycle.  It cranks over a little slower than with two starters (at least it seams)but also seams to not be bothered if the radios are left on for a few hours.

 

Different style batteries really don't like being mixed on once charge circuit. You will drastically shorten the life of both batteries doing that. 

 

I would get some good dual purpose batteries and keep them matched. 

Edited December 26, 2017 by AH64ID

[TFaoro]

3 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

Not sure. I don't see the table for 2014 in UDC. 

 

2009 is the same as my 2005. 

 

 

 

 

Here is what I run, more starting aid based and less emissions based. 

 

Did you forget to add something??

I'll look at the RaceMe files tonight and see if it can be changed. It might not be in UDC Pro if it's an "emissions thing"

[Me78569]

My truck doesn't cycle for that long subzero.  its more like 20 seconds.    I dont know if IAT has been at -40*f ever when trying to start.  quite a few times at -30*f.  

Edited December 26, 2017 by Me78569

[WiscoRedkneck]

5 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

 

Different style batteries really don't like being mixed on once charge circuit. You will drastically shorten the life of both batteries doing that. 

 

I would get some good dual purpose batteries and keep them matched. 

Good to know, I kinda figured there would be some form of downfall 

[Carbur8tr]

So since I am cold illiterate, how many of you plug your truck in and does this help when the temps are below whatever temp you generally have problems at?