Smoke on start up runs rough for a bit smells like oil

[Dieselfuture]

I've mentioned this in few of my replies but now it's getting worse. It actually stumbled for a bit today when it blew some smoke out. It definitely smells like oil. I'm not loosing any antifreeze but it does seem to use a little bit of oil, I heard the oil I use (Cen-Pe-Co) is known for that so didn't think nothing of it. Last summer I did head gasket and new guides in head. So my guess is ether a seal was faulty or a guide not true that ruined a seal prematurely. I don't think it's the turbo seal because engine runs rough and if it was exhaust seal on turbo I don't think it would change how engine runs. 

Is there anything else I'm missing that can cause mostly white/lightly grey smoke on start up that smells like oil. I know an injector can do this but why oil smell. If it was rings I would assume it would run like that all the time, but after initial start it's fine till it sits for a while. Definitely acts like a valve seal.

Another question, if piston is at TDC on compression stroke will all valves sit on top of piston while I remove springs and keepers, and go back together. I think I know the answer but want to be sure before I get in it. 

[dripley]

Not the engine mechanic here, but would it make any difference what stroke it was on as long as it was at the top?

 

As far as white to gray smoke, the oil smell seems a bit odd without a little blue smoke in with it. Again not the engine man here.

[Mopar1973Man]

Like my truck is doing that right now. I've got to do valve seals this summer. It drips just enough oil in the cylinder to create the blue/white smoke that smells of engine oil. Every start cold or hot. Typically gone in a few seconds after starting. I'm using about a quart of oil in 7k miles. Nothing to panic about in my case. Now just for safety sake I would verify the turbo on both sides and make sure the turbo isn't leaking oil into the air stream or down the exhaust side. This has happened to a few in the past. Just take the time and check it out. 

[Dieselfuture]

53 minutes ago, dripley said:

Not the engine mechanic here, but would it make any difference what stroke it was on as long as it was at the top?

You right, I'm not sure what I was thinking. It's funny I even posted this as many engines as I've tore apart,  but that's why I started this post, because you know, stupid is stupid does....

[Dieselfuture]

So I took valve cover off and found that half of exhaust valve seals are ripped, not sure if it happened when they assembled the head or something caused them to fail later. Rotating motor over have plenty of clearance( ok edit here, maybe not on a closer look). I'm pissed now as this shop never had a bad reputation. So I guess I'm going to be calling them tomorrow and see what they say. Ether way this sucks as I have to remove all rockers and then readjust valves. But probably not a bad thing ether, maybe I'll retorque my head gasket while I'm there. 

Another question, is there a way or a tool to remove one spring at time to avoid removing injectors? Or am I stock pulling them out too?

 

On closer look springs get collapsed quite a bit, maybe not enough clearance?

Edited August 5, 2018 by Dieselfuture

[trreed]

Why is there a crack in your head that extends from the boss through the washer?  Without pulling the head, there isn't really a way to take one spring out at a time.  Easiest to pull injectors.  Stock springs will look like they almost bind when the valve is opened.  I wouldn't be worried.

[Dieselfuture]

1 hour ago, trreed said:

Why is there a crack in your head that extends from the boss through the washer?  Without pulling the head, there isn't really a way to take one spring out at a time.  Easiest to pull injectors.  Stock springs will look like they almost bind when the valve is opened.  I wouldn't be worried.

Not sure what crack, I'm confused. And binding on stock springs, what do you mean. Is it compressed too much for a stock spring/cam , maybe I have an aftermarket cam idk. Im kinda angry right now about this whole deal, first changing guides with only 154k on motor now seals are shoot after 6k and not all about half, valve lash seemed right at 8/18 where I had it. 

I'm getting to a point with this pos now where all I seem to do is fix it, thinking just changing seals sell it and get something like a Tundra, that's all I need anyway. 

If i pull injectors I'd like to get 7x11 or 7x12 in there but if this problem comes back in 6k again then there is obviously something wrong with clearances. It looks like seals got beat up by spring retainers.

Just frustrated at the moment. Sorry for the rent. I need a drink, too hot out for this.

[Dieselfuture]

If I can figure this out and hope I don't need to take head off again  to maybe shave guides down so retainers don't beat on seals, I'd like to get bigger injectors at least 7x10 but thinking 7x12 or even 7x11 just need help deciding. I'm probably going with vco and my current ones are 8x something according to dap they were 75-85 hp roughly. 

So my question is can my turbo (62/67/12 hx35/40 mix/machined) do it without high egts, I know now if I lag it a bit I can easily see 1300ish on pyro. So if I go bigger like 7x12 will egts be out of control. I understand that I can tune some of it out but if I detune it what's the purpose of bigger injectors. I know @Me78569 ran 7x12 with his custom tuned turbo with no issues but not sure how my set up will work. Maybe 7x10 is all I need but I've spent money twice already on injectors and constantly hearing diferent opinions. 

Twins would be ideal but not in budget at the moment, too many things to catch up on.

I guess I can just put my injectors back in and call it a day too, just thought dap can make rework my 60hp set to something bigger while I'm in there.

Head hurts, thanks for input.

[Me78569]

7x .010's are good mutli use injectors.  they can flow enough for 500+ hp and you dont have to tune them into submission

[Mopar1973Man]

Ask @trreed about his shower head nozzles... 

[Dieselfuture]

Is there a way I could be floating valves at higher RPM and that's what chewed up my seals? Maybe I should put heavier springs in if that would eliminate the problem. On the rare occasion I will go just over 3000 RPM, most of the time I get to 22-2400. Just seems like it was fine for most of the year since I put it all together and latly I've been abusing it more often. Wonder if if it's possible to ruin seals if I floated valves, my common sense says yes. 

 

Edit. And what brand/type springs do I need for my mild set up. I'm tagging your lazy buts sorry, I want answers now 

@trreed@Me78569@jlbayes

Any input from someone that done this is appreciated, thank you gents.

Forgive me for my language just trying to resolve this 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Dieselfuture

[Me78569]

call DAP lol.  Jacob just told me what I needed.

[trreed]

14 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

Not sure what crack, I'm confused

First picture, left side, on the external stud and boss.

 

If you floated the valves, you'd have way bigger issues than just torn seals.  I think it's just the luck of the draw.  

For aftermarket springs, I'm using Crower units out of a Neon, P/N 68190-24.  Once installed the Cummins, the seat pressure is ~110#

12 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Ask @trreed about his shower head nozzles... 

I just went through again and tuned a little more out of them at low boost.....  Too much off-idle smoke yet.

Edited August 6, 2018 by trreed

[Dieselfuture]

27 minutes ago, trreed said:

First picture, left side, on the external stud and boss.

 

If you floated the valves, you'd have way bigger issues than just torn seals.  I think it's just the luck of the draw.  

For aftermarket springs, I'm using Crower units out of a Neon, P/N 68190-24.  Once installed the Cummins, the seat pressure is ~110#

I see, that's just piece of thread from rag, not a crack, I can sleep better now. 

Do you have diferent cam or pushrods or just springs, I wonder if I even need all that. If i call place that sells parts, I'm sure they'll tell me I need all of it lol. I see dap has some springs and pushrods, is there anything to chose from for my set up, not trying to go much over 500hp. Will be getting 7x10 injectors and now seeing that there is a choice of valve seals like top hat one number for both intake/exhaust 4991571 my local Cummins said that about $2 a piece, has anyone used these. Another number is 3955393 not sure the difference. Wonder if they are shorter maybe

 

https://puredieselpower.com/dodge-products/03-07-dodge-5.9l-cummins-exhaust-valve-seal.html#/product/8557

Edited August 6, 2018 by Dieselfuture

[trreed]

Good it's not a crack! 

I just have springs and studs.  No pushrods yet, and stock cam.  You shouldn't need any of that for 500 hp.  

If you're dead set on springs and studs for peace of mind reasons, going directly to manufacturers can save you hundreds versus buying from a name brand (and the name brand is just re-branded anyways).  

[Dieselfuture]

42 minutes ago, trreed said:

Good it's not a crack! 

I just have springs and studs.  No pushrods yet, and stock cam.  You shouldn't need any of that for 500 hp.  

If you're dead set on springs and studs for peace of mind reasons, going directly to manufacturers can save you hundreds versus buying from a name brand (and the name brand is just re-branded anyways).  

Ok thanks, who is manufacturer. I talked with Matt at dap he said about same thing and recommended their brand of springs and pushrods top of picture. Unless somehow I can buy from Hamilton or some place, sounds like that's who they might be getting theirs from. But once again if I'm only saving few bucks I don't mind paying them a little extra for the effort. Now if they are doubling money I would go to manufacture. Idk head still hurts

[trreed]

Manton makes the pushrods for Hamilton and DAP.  Last I checked a set of 12 was around $130 for the same thickness and diameter as the top right picture from DAP.....

Crower springs are $113.

Good parts can be had at good prices with some asking around.

Edited August 6, 2018 by trreed

[Dieselfuture]

I talked to machine shop and they said that more than likely I floated valves or valve lash was to tight. Told me to get it apart and see if anything moved. 

Anyone else here turning 3000+rpm with stock valve train? I know quadzilla is set to 3200 and on ocasion I get there. Also they have used top hat seals before and they are interchangeable from intake to exhaust, but adds .020 to spring hight and little more tension. 

@jlbayes are you out there, can you put in your  please to this post.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Dieselfuture

[notlimah]

Just to give a warm and fuzzy, I’m completely stock cam/springs/rods and have seen 3-3200rpm and no issues. I’ll have some smoke on start up here and there but I’m thinking it was mainly from my old stock injectors. Only had a chance to drive the truck a couple weeks since with the new ones installed and the weather was warmer and no smoke ever.

[Dieselfuture]

31 minutes ago, notlimah said:

Just to give a warm and fuzzy, I’m completely stock cam/springs/rods and have seen 3-3200rpm and no issues. I’ll have some smoke on start up here and there but I’m thinking it was mainly from my old stock injectors. Only had a chance to drive the truck a couple weeks since with the new ones installed and the weather was warmer and no smoke ever.

Thanks for the info, I'm not too fuzzy right now lol. Waiting on dap to give me some pricing and spoke with Trevor at Menton, nice guy and gave me lots of info and better price. So I'm going to disassemble my head and see what's all screwed up. Sounds like my previously ovaled guides could of been due to weak springs and rocker arm bridges. Also trunion on roker arm can go bad, so now I'm debating on how much I want to spend and make it right. I just don't see the end....