DAP Injector Upgrade 7 x 0.010 @ 320 Bar

[Mopar1973Man]

1 minute ago, pepsi71ocean said:

@Mopar1973Man Do you find that your retarding the timing beyond he OEM timing? Similarly to how we were discussing the idea behind raising the pop pressure to help with the smarty?

 

Still rather new but, I'm going to say higher pop pressure is going to need to retard timing more. 

 

2 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

Similarly to how we were discussing the idea behind raising the pop pressure to help with the smarty?

 

The problem with the Smarty S-03 there is no way to see in real time what your timing is. Then you would have ot have the LOD on your ScanGauge II and monitor engine load to figure out what Revo setting to use. Lower cruise engine load is better.

[pepsi71ocean]

2 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Still rather new but, I'm going to say higher pop pressure is going to need to retard timing more. 

 

 

The problem with the Smarty S-03 there is no way to see in real time what your timing is. Then you would have ot have the LOD on your ScanGauge II and monitor engine load to figure out what Revo setting to use. Lower cruise engine load is better.

 

So can you state with any kind of guesstimate, by retarding the timing your doing what? I'm trying to understand what requires you to retard the timing?  I'll agree with my truck even thought she ran for 3 weeks was smooth as butter at idle, but the rest of it is hard to estimate the effects that the raising pop pressure had on the dynamic timing not seen by the pump because it was mechanical.

[Mopar1973Man]

8 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

So can you state with any kind of guesstimate, by retarding the timing your doing what? I'm trying to understand what requires you to retard the timing?

 

I was cranking up the timing and advancing heavily because of the old injectors creating large droplets. Now larger the droplets the longer it needs to heat to vapor and go BANG. 

 

Now with the fresh injectors at 320 bar now the droplets are very fine and small. The cylinder temperature is enough to make it go BANG in a very short time. Now if I left my old tune running at 22* at 2,000 RPM it would rattle fairly well and that is negative torque building up. Start backing down the timing and the rattle fades back and get quieter. Now watch for the engine load to drop down which is sign of optimal timing because you need less fuel if you hit the sweet spot. 

 

Remember Quadzilla drops it tuning and reverts to stock ECM below 1,200 RPM. Where Smarty S-03 reprograms the entire ECM from idle up. Then Smarty you can't see your timing in real time to make educated adjustments to timing. Still have no idea of the span of timing on Smarty S-03 tune. 

 

Previously timing...

16, 19.3, 23.4, 27.1

 

Insight to what I got.

 

Nothing really changed here. Light Throttle Timing was up to +3*.

[pepsi71ocean]

2 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

I was cranking up the timing and advancing heavily because of the old injectors creating large droplets. Now larger the droplets the longer it needs to heat to vapor and go BANG. 

 

Now with the fresh injectors at 320 bar now the droplets are very fine and small. The cylinder temperature is enough to make it go BANG in a very short time. Now if I left my old tune running at 22* at 2,000 RPM it would rattle fairly well and that is negative torque building up. Start backing down the timing and the rattle fades back and get quieter. Now watch for the engine load to drop down which is sign of optimal timing because you need less fuel if you hit the sweet spot. 

 

Remember Quadzilla drops it tuning and reverts to stock ECM below 1,200 RPM. Where Smarty S-03 reprograms the entire ECM from idle up. Then Smarty you can't see your timing in real time to make educated adjustments to timing. Still have no idea of the span of timing on Smarty S-03 tune.

 

 

Wouldn't the engine load gauge be eschewed because of the smarty being on the truck?

 

Correct, which is why we were theorizing that raising the pop pressure would offset the timing.

When you say you started to back down the timing your saying that is heading more retarded as it will quiet the motor down?

[Mopar1973Man]

21 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

Wouldn't the engine load gauge be eschewed because of the smarty being on the truck?

 

Most likely. But you could still use it for the most part.

 

21 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

Correct, which is why we were theorizing that raising the pop pressure would offset the timing.

 

It most likely does but the fuel atomization is what makes the ignition quicker if it's fine enough. 

 

Quote

When you say you started to back down the timing your saying that is heading more retarded as it will quiet the motor down?

 

Yes. As timing retards the engine get quieter.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[pepsi71ocean]

17 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

It most likely does but the fuel atomization is what makes the ignition quicker if it's fine enough.

 

So its more or less a catch 22, as the retarded timing added by the raising of pop pressure is counter acted by the decrease in duration.

 

17 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Yes. As timing retards the engine get quieter.

 

How can you heard this noise when driving down the road? What does it sound like?

 

I'll have to get back to you about the eschewed readings on the scan gauge with the Smarty.

 

Would the guy developing the CCD tool be able to read timing?

Edited February 3, 2019 by pepsi71ocean

[Mopar1973Man]

37 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

How can you heard this noise when driving down the road?

 

Sounds like normal ignition rattle but the more you advance the timing the more the rattle increases in volume. As you retard it get quieter you can retard it deep enough that the engine is nearly silent but the performance sucks because it just way too retarded then. 

 

39 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

Would the guy developing the CCD tool be able to read timing?

 

Not sure. The Timing value would be off the SCI Bus side most likely like Smarty Touch does. @Chris O. is on the CCD network side. Quadzilla gets the timing value from the CANBus side. 

[pepsi71ocean]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Sounds like normal ignition rattle but the more you advance the timing the more the rattle increases in volume. As you retard it get quieter you can retard it deep enough that the engine is nearly silent but the performance sucks because it just way too retarded then.

 

And this is driving down the road? If I set the smarty back to stock how would that compare? I know with my 100's would my truck be quieter in stock form?  I guess I'm trying to get an idea of what it should sounds like so i can play with my Smarty's timing settings to see what the sound changes like. I know my truck is whisper quiet from 1,200 to 1,500rpm on the T4 setting, but should I try to move that farther up?

 

@Tractorman may find this conversation interesting as he is playing with his smarty as well.

[Mopar1973Man]

4 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

And this is driving down the road?

 

Yes. Typically under the cruise timing or low engine load. 

 

5 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

If I set the smarty back to stock how would that compare?

 

Back to stock timing. Unknown how it compares being that we can't see Smarty S-03 timing in real time.

 

6 minutes ago, pepsi71ocean said:

I guess I'm trying to get an idea of what it should sounds like so i can play with my Smarty's timing settings to see what the sound changes like. I know my truck is whisper quiet from 1,200 to 1,500rpm on the T4 setting, but should I try to move that farther up?

 

Hard to tell without knowing what your current timing is across the range of RPM. This is where Smarty S-03 comes to end. You can separate RPM ranges and adjust timing accordingly. Like the low end I would be adding timing because of your comment of the 1.2k to 1.5k RPM range. Then I would need to know what the cruise timing is at highway speed. Again something Smarty S-03 can't do.

[trreed]

30 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Back to stock timing. Unknown how it compares being that we can't see Smarty S-03 timing in real time.

We can though, if you use a quadzilla.  Nick and Tyler did plenty of testing a couple of years ago to map the Samrty's timing curves.  That's where Nick came up with the 18.02* number.

Edited February 4, 2019 by trreed

[Mopar1973Man]

3 minutes ago, trreed said:

We can though, if you use a quadzilla.

 

Yeah, I realize that. But @pepsi71ocean only has a Smarty S-03. Now how do you see Smarty timing values without a Quadzilla? 

 

4 minutes ago, trreed said:

I know Nick and Tyler did plenty of testing a couple of years ago to map the Samrty's timing curves.  That's where Nick came up with the 18.02* number.

 

Yeah... But now when @pepsi71ocean is running 325 bar popped injectors what timing curve would you suggest being I'm pulling timing for 320 bar. Again need to see what active timing he's running to suggest a valid timing to use. 

[Tractorman]

This has been an interesting read.  @pepsi71ocean, I agree with @Mopar1973Man in that timing rattle is easily detected audibly when timing is advanced with the Smarty S03 to the T3 and especially the T4 setting.  The difference doesn't seem to be noticeable at idle, but once you get moving it is very noticeable, even after the engine has reached operating temperature.  It is most noticeable (and annoying) under light to moderate throttle.  Over the years I have done a few things to help quiet engine noise and as a result I can easily hear excessive timing rattle.

 

When I had my stock injectors I ran timing at T1, and now with the RV275's I have experimented and it looks like I will stay with T2.  With T2, performance and fuel economy are good with no timing rattle. 

 

In about two weeks I will be taking the travel trailer to Crescent City - this will be the first long towing trip (GCVW at 12,500 lbs) with the RV275 injectors.

 

- John

[trreed]

2 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Yeah... But now when @pepsi71ocean is running 325 bar popped injectors what timing curve would you suggest being I'm pulling timing for 320 bar. Again need to see what active timing he's running to suggest a valid timing to use. 

Well, you're liking the 18* mark right?  There's your answer.  Magically, the same value Smarty hovers around, and @pepsi71ocean's injectors will only be 5 bar more than yours.  72 psi won't make much of a difference at 4700 pop pressure..

[Mopar1973Man]

Just now, trreed said:

Well, you're liking the 18* mark right?  There's your answer.  Magically, the same value Smarty hovers around, and @pepsi71ocean's injectors will only be 5 bar more than yours.  72 psi won't make much of a difference at 4700 pop pressure..

 

Yeah but what timing setting on the Smarty S-03 Revo? I'm happy but I'm not sure @pepsi71ocean is. I'm not sure what he's running. 

[pepsi71ocean]

For me tuning the smarty really has required allot of intuition, Its not easily seen or understood what I'm feeling and hearing.

[int3man]

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 6:14 PM, Marcus2000monster said:

New injectors 375$ new qaud 700$ They’re is no way I can afford a qaud right. Ow and I need my truck to be dependable. 

I Just noticed at DAP they were running an iQuad / Injector special !!   Trade your injectors in, basically the injectors are $100 to you.  iQuad will not make your truck unreliable just a dream to drive!  my 2 cents worth.

 

 

Michael

Edited February 4, 2019 by int3man

[hdpwipmonkey]

3 hours ago, int3man said:

I Just noticed at DAP they were running an iQuad / Injector special !!   Trade your injectors in, basically the injectors are $100 to you.  iQuad will not make your truck unreliable just a dream to drive!  my 2 cents worth.

 

 

Michael

I saw that too.  I have injectors and quad in my cart but I really should do transmission upgrade first... 

[NIsaacs]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 7:55 PM, Me78569 said:

never less than 7 x .010's

 

When you get time, could you explain this a little more, please. Currently running an Edge Juice and RV's with about 290k miles on them, so I should buy something new. I do need to stay at my current power level (400hp) due to stock turbo, stage one clutch and wallet. Could I turn the Juice down to about level 2 with larger injectors and still get my 400hp? I am also really not interested in 100k mile injectors. The RV's last a long time for whatever reason.

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 6:31 AM, Mopar1973Man said:

 

I already know that anything set for 305 bar or 300 bar I can promise the injectors will not make it a full 100k miles and be getting pissy and MPG dropping out. Morning white smoke as well. I'm tired of all the builders only thinking priority is HP/TQ. I want longevity and MPG performance. 

 

Did you custom order your injectors for more pressure over whatever stock is? New or rebuilt bodies? Also, VCO v/s SAC, it sounds like the SAC last longer? I need to buy something new since my RV's have so many miles on them but I really don't want a 100k injector. Thanks.

[Marcus2000monster]

9 hours ago, int3man said:

I Just noticed at DAP they were running an iQuad / Injector special !!   Trade your injectors in, basically the injectors are $100 to you.  iQuad will not make your truck unreliable just a dream to drive!  my 2 cents worth.

 

 

Michael

I ordered a Qaud! Injectors will have to wait a bit though. 

[int3man]

2 hours ago, Marcus2000monster said:

I ordered a Qaud! Injectors will have to wait a bit though. 

I was wrong they charge $300+ adder for the injectors.  Thought it was too good to be true.  It was.

 

Michael

Edited February 4, 2019 by int3man