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Posted (edited)

I want to bring up something that i think is rather weird. Majority of people here are quick to make changes to there truck and ditch OEM stuff. For the 2nd Gen 24V the OEM lift pump is removed and upgraded to FASS, AirDog or mechanical pump. Stock OEM injectors pull out and aftermarket oversized injectors installed. Then the Factory ECM tune is ditched for Quadzilla, Smarty, Edge, etc. 

 

Why in the heck does any one want to hold so dearly to a thermostat, water pump or a fan clutch that MUST be OEM

 

First off if you do your research Moprar and Cummins don't make very many parts. Like the last blow up over a thermostat. There is only a small handful of companies making thermostats. Again Mopar and Cummins don't manufacture any thermostats, fan clutches, or water pumps. 

 

The other thing is comments of all the failures on forums. Wow. Sure everyone is quick to complain about a failure of a part. But... There is lots of different things that could of gone wrong. Improper installation, defective part, abusing the vehicle, radiator plugged up, etc. Then rarely if at all does anyone say anything about great results with a aftermarket parts. So that is a very skewed method picking parts.

 

My point is Mopar and Cummins is NOT doing any research to improve parts for our trucks they are done. There is entire aftermarket world where companies are actually improving parts and products. What is there just the handful of parts that MUST be OEM? I've got no clue...

 

I've watch as @Me78569 use OEM Dana Ball joints which end up failing early too. I watch people do this all the time thinking that the same parts are still there from back in 1998.5 to 2002. Nope those parts are long gone and someone else is making the replacement parts for Mopar and Cummins. Kind of like the original fuel pickup basket of the 1998.5 to 2002 that no longer produced period. 

 

The only thing I want to point out before jumping into Cummins or Mopar for OEM parts. First do a bit of research. First off is the old part going to be the same part manufacturer? Most likely not. Second find out who is manufacturing said part now. Pretty sure you'll find out you can have the very same part but a reasonable price from the manufacturer that is supplying Mopar or Cummins. You don't have to buy the logo on the box.

 

Then there is the entire aftermarket world of parts where other companies are making better parts and supplies for our trucks. Kind of like saying you want a OEM 47RE transmission which everyone here knows was a weak transmission won't hold the power. That where the aftermarket world comes in and making thing better with heavy duty parts. If OEM is so great I offer anyone to return there truck back to OEM let's go back to the OEM lift pump on the block or the OEM lift pump in the tank... I'm sure that won't last very long at all. Why even ask for OEM anything knowing that 99% of all parts today have been improved over the OEM of 1998.5 to 2002...

 

Some people forget... I just don't work on my own truck but tons of vehicles. I work on Dodge's, Ram's, Chevy's, Ford's, etc. Now I will admit there is some parts I've seen low service rates. I'm not going to beat anyone up over it I just use something that works better. Very very rare do I ever go to a dealer for parts this is plain foolish. 

 

Like there are sometimes that OEM is the only choice. I did a A/C job on a Subaru few years back and it was a hybrid car (6 cylinder) this made the A/C parts rather rare. I needed the pressure switch on the accumulator. Hunted all over the place for that switch come to find out its a dealer only item. What was worse was you had to buy it with the accumulator at the price of $520 dollars. Just because it came from Subaru dealer it was priced extremely high. I had no other choice. If there was a aftermarket part I would of jump in a heart beat and left Subaru dealer in a hurry. 

 

My job to all you is to help you fix your truck and help you get parts that are reasonable in price and good service life. I really do have a problem when people are push into dealer parts and prices because it not always the best parts either. Again why do we pull all the OEM stuff and replace it with aftermarket stuff?

 

Edited by Mopar1973Man
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Posted (edited)

There is no doubt in my mind that Mopar1973Man, that he himself is all original.:lol: 

 

As for parts, I like good aftermarket parts that have a proven track record, but one of the big deals with me is the auto parts stores seem to be running toward cheaper most common stuff because it is easy to sell at the lower price and still has a decent mark up for them. Another form of inflation is the lowering of quality, always hunting for a cheaper manufacturer but prices stay close to the same or go up anyway. I would rather pay good money for good parts and not have to participate in helping below average manufacturers be successful in any way.

Edited by JAG1

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1 minute ago, JAG1 said:

There is no doubt in my mind that Mopar1973Man is all original.......

 

No. Absolutely not.

 

2 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

I would rather pay good money for good parts and not have to participate in helping below average manufacturers be successful in any way.

 

I agree with that.

 

The only thing I don't want to do is hand over good money for a logo'ed part (Mopar or Cummins) to find out its made by a company that you can buy directly from them instead at a huge reduction of price.

 

Few of the past things I bought like a MAP sensor from Cummins and the adapter for 2001 to 2002 that cost me over $200 for the two pieces. Another waste of money being these sensors can be had for a better price and with the adapter cable for free.

 

Another one, I ended up replacing APPS sensor early in life no aftermarket parts available and went to Dodge Dealer and got hosed for $480 for APPS sensor. Now know there is Timbo's APPS at the fraction of the price and way better design. Still running my Timbo's without any issues.

 

Another one, I was told by Eric @ Vulcan Performance to just call Cummins Dealer and order crossover tubes. OMG! $420 bucks for all 6 connector tubes. I refused to pay the $70 a piece price for Cummins logo'ed crossover tube. I had Eric order the set from his supplier took a huge savings. 

 

Just few example of wasteful spending just for OEM parts. 

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I buy mostly after market and have had pretty good success. Got two brake rotors to replace that were bought cheap, aftermarket, but lost on that deal. But I still think I came out ahead for the most part over the years using aftermarket.  

 

I like new old stock if you can find it. But you might be snookered there too. I found 3 u joints for the drive shaft that way. They do appear as original replacement parts. Now all the original ones need to wear out. Still going to pull them one day and rebuild it just see inside the OE ones. Sealed and still going strong. I would like to find a set of new old ball joints, that would make the chicken man happy. Replaced the OE with MOOG about 237k ago and they are still holding up and about to surpass the OE ones.

 

Now I am just rambling. I think you ought to buy  whatever makes you happy and be prepared for some failures and hopefully many successes.  OE or aftermarket, we get to make the choice and live with the results. 

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Big difference in repair parts and upgrade parts. 

 

In my younger years I would get cheap parts store parts and they were junk, but I was broke and had time to replace them... sometimes on the side of the road due to premature failure. 

 

Now I have less time and more income, so I use higher quality parts. That doesn’t always mean OE, but often it does. It does however mean that parts store parts won’t find their way onto my truck, or any other rig I get out of town in. 

 

I’ll put some parts store parts on my commuters as they are spare rigs and don’t go anywhere I must have absolute reliability with. But not all parts are from parts stores, some are still OE. Depends on the part. 

 

Something I’ve learned thru experience is that lifetime warranties normally mean you’ll spend a lifetime replacing it. Rebuilt with the absolutely cheapest components. 

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3 hours ago, AH64ID said:

Big difference in repair parts and upgrade parts. 

 

In my younger years I would get cheap parts store parts and they were junk, but I was broke and had time to replace them... sometimes on the side of the road due to premature failure. 

 

Now I have less time and more income, so I use higher quality parts. That doesn’t always mean OE, but often it does. It does however mean that parts store parts won’t find their way onto my truck, or any other rig I get out of town in. 

 

I’ll put some parts store parts on my commuters as they are spare rigs and don’t go anywhere I must have absolute reliability with. But not all parts are from parts stores, some are still OE. Depends on the part. 

 

Something I’ve learned thru experience is that lifetime warranties normally mean you’ll spend a lifetime replacing it. Rebuilt with the absolutely cheapest components. 

I really wanted to laugh and like this one. The last statement is very true and I have experienced that. Most of cheap parts I have used are the readily accessable ones and easy to swap, but not always. Put  a Dorman rack and pinion in the wifes 06 Dakota with my fingers crossed. She then drove over a gaurd rail and down a mountainside in the Blue Ridge. So we will never know about that decision. She is lucky to be alive.

 

When i did my head gasket i looked at a couple other brands on the gasket set just for economics but just couldn't do it. Still found a Cummins gasket set for right a $200 and the rockers assemblies were used Cummins parts and looked much better than what was in there. I did it that way for peace of mind. The other brands were not that much cheaper anyway. The original gasket held up for 450k so hopefully the replacement will more than outlast me. Did not want to skimp on that one. 

 

I too have less time and a good income but took in the shorts on great recession, worked my way out that one and walked into a nasty custody with my daughter that cost way to much money and now working out of that one. Sometimes the bullshit never ends.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/7/2019 at 3:08 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Why in the heck does any one want to hold so dearly to a thermostat, water pump or a fan clutch that MUST be OEM

 

Some people forget... I just don't work on my own truck but tons of vehicles. I work on Dodge's, Ram's, Chevy's, Ford's, etc. Now I will admit there is some parts I've seen low service rates. I'm not going to beat anyone up over it I just use something that works better. Very very rare do I ever go to a dealer for parts this is plain foolish. 

 

Like there are sometimes that OEM is the only choice. I did a A/C job on a Subaru  

 

 

I don't recall anyone saying to go all OEM or all aftermarket. I use tons of aftermarket, mostly Napa products. I also use tons of OEM. I have 2 John Deere and 1 Case/IH tractors, a Bobcat loader and a Haybuster tub grinder. Try and buy aftermarket parts for them. Or 2 Honda quads, a Craftsman Garden tractor, a Swisher brush cutter, Troybuilt tiller and four chainsaws, try and buy aftermarket for them. If the part is offered, mostly that is where I get them, aftermarket. However, normally only small simple parts. Nothing major is offered. I do all my own repair, 100%.

 

My Cummins thermostat worked, my Napa didn't, period. My oem fan clutch works, my Napa/Haden (2) didn't. Currently on my second lifetime water pump, aftermarket. Same for my alternator (2), aftermarket. My aftermarket (Sachs) clutch is fine so far (120k miles on it. I got 80k miles out of 2 Precision u-joints so I went to the severe duty, so far so good.

 

I have 300k miles on a set of OEM Bosch injectors (RV275's) . I just made a round trip haul to Phoenix (small trailer and load) 422 miles, 24.6 gallons of fuel for a 17.15 mpg. Nothing wrong with my truck and "I" am the only one that works on it. Just because we work on our rigs different, don't make it wrong, just different. What works for one, may not work for another. 

 

Picture of OEM augers for my tub grinder and the repair.....

 

 

0515191243a.jpg

0515191302.jpg

0515191303.jpg

0515191455.jpg

Edited by NIsaacs
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On 8/7/2019 at 6:08 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

Why in the heck does any one want to hold so dearly to a thermostat, water pump or a fan clutch that MUST be OEM

 

In speaking to those 3 specific items it's due to the poor reputation of non-OEM parts. 

 

With all the forums we have the ability to learn from others experiences, good and bad. Those experiences have taught us that certain aftermarket parts are generally not as reliable. It's not going be that way every time, but if I read about more premature NAPA thermostat, water pump, or fan clutch failures than OEM you had better bet I'm not going to buy or recommend a NAPA replacement. Doesn't that just seem like common sense?

 

As I have said every time you have an issue with people recommending OEM, there are just some parts that are more reliable when they are OEM

 

Despite what you might think, it's not black and white on OEM or non-OEM parts. Plenty of non-OEM parts are better, just as plenty of OEM parts are better. Take the experiences that people post and learn from others good and bad luck, otherwise why use the forums. 

 

 

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I have been doing a lot of research on the thermostat for these trucks. Trying to find out why some are different design. I found this info on the Cummins 190F 3946849. It lists for the 2000-2002 Dodge, but then they go on to say this: "First Used on MY03 PRE-S0 Revised Bypass Depth. " Huh?? The picture in the link appears to look just like the Napa one that wouldn't work for me.....It may or not mean something.....

 

I also found a TSB 07-08-98 for the thermostat failure on the 98.5 - 99. http://dodgeram.info/tsb/1998/07-08-98.htm

 

Link to Cummins 190F stat.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr9Du2Ynk1dPwQADENXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByM3V1YTVuBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMzBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1565396760/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.thoroughbreddiesel.com%2f3946849%2f/RK=2/RS=0ILHhJw2ozPuUfEUe0n.Qfzo_ZM-

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27 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

I have been doing a lot of research on the thermostat for these trucks. Trying to find out why some are different design. I found this info on the Cummins 190F 3946849. It lists for the 2000-2002 Dodge, but then they go on to say this: "First Used on MY03 PRE-S0 Revised Bypass Depth. " Huh?? The picture in the link appears to look just like the Napa one that wouldn't work for me.....It may or not mean something.....

 

I also found a TSB 07-08-98 for the thermostat failure on the 98.5 - 99. http://dodgeram.info/tsb/1998/07-08-98.htm

 

Link to Cummins 190F stat.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr9Du2Ynk1dPwQADENXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByM3V1YTVuBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMzBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1565396760/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.thoroughbreddiesel.com%2f3946849%2f/RK=2/RS=0ILHhJw2ozPuUfEUe0n.Qfzo_ZM-

 

So that would make complete sense as to why the bypass looks like it won't work with a standard ISB head, and will cause engines to run cold. 

 

I've never heard of a revised bypass depth head thou. 

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Posted (edited)

https://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/3946849/

 

cummins-3946849

 

Exactly what I've seen in Ontario, OR. 190*F Cummins thermostat. Still right application for 2002 Dodge Ram 5.9L HO. Just his was running way low in temperature never reaching 190*F. 

 

Just for information purpose...

 

The 200°F Gates is junk. Wild swings as high as 220°F to as low as 175°F. Not stable and very very wild swings up and down.

 

All 3 NAPA are still good and serviceable. The two 190°F were swapped out during coolant flush schedule they hover at 195°F. I figured I'd play with a 180°F to see if there is any gain but runs too cold to be much good in the winter time this one runs about 183°F. All 3 of these are right in the normal range where they should be. 

 

You can see the changes. The small mouth is the old design and the larger mouth is the updated. My current 190°F looks like the 180°F on the right.

DSCF4611.JPG

DSCF4612.JPG

Edited by Mopar1973Man
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It I am seeing this right, The Cummins thermostat 3946849 looks nothing like the oem stat that came in my truck  in 2001. Could it be that it’s not an oem thermostat and just marketing purpose says it is, maybe just an aftermarket claiming to be better? but obviously having some failures. 

I still got the oem stat that I pulled out in 2010, it was still functioning but put a new one in for good measure, Napa part # 375 190 like others have been running with out issues and seems to be very close to the oem Cummins thermostat 

 

pic of original 

A6F34581-7799-4EB6-B806-FDDECFB74D4F.jpeg

63D7D217-E9BE-49A9-B12B-6F5602D4AE7F.jpeg

067DE622-A3E4-4804-A5C3-A6B7A386E784.jpeg

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Again... Cummins and Mopar do not produce any thermostats. 

 

Being I've been working on Dodge trucks now over 17 years and seen several version of Cummins thermostats and not one ever looks the same. Even the new one from Cummins will not look like your past Cummins thermostat. Cummins and Mopar both just select another thermostat and stock it with a heavy marked up price. 

 

All the digging I've do on finding who manufactures thermostats for our trucks and what Cummins or Mopar supplies are always a different manufacture, some times they are the same thermostats as NAPA. Some times they look totally wild like the recent 2019 posted above. 

 

Still I tend to follow aftermarket parts more so because they upgrade quickly and issues typically get resolved fast. Still to this day all the NAPA thermostats I've installed in Dodge, Ram, Chevy, Ford, Subaru, etc. Never had to pull one out yet because it failed. Not like I've got selection of parts stores up here the only thing up here is NAPA period. Now in Ontario, OR there is Autozone and other chain stores. 

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Who cares who makes it for OEM? It's made to OEM specs, that's what you're buying with OEM. Aftermarket stuff doesn't always adhere to OEM specs, fuel filters are a great example. NAPA fuel filters for 3rd gens don't meet minimum spec, and the spec is published. 

 

I've bought multiple OEM thermostats over the last decade and they ALL look the same, because they are all the same. 

 

Your "new" 19 thermostat isn't anything new, it's been an issue for many years. It doesn't work for most, and I'd guess the rest don't notice it running cooler. I am not sure why you're so stuck on it, when anyone who actually looks at it realizes it's not correct for the application. It must work on a modified head, or needs something else to work with it. 

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Still using the Cummins 3946849 190F stat, that is linked above by Mike and I, under the fitment notes, it says: "requires a 55 mm housing bore". I believe it should be 58mm. I wonder what that is all about?

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

Who cares who makes it for OEM?

 

I do! Then I can buy it at the manufacture for a reduced cost WITHOUT the logo. 

 

16 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

It's made to OEM specs,

 

Thermostat the spec is on the bottom of the bulb of when it opens. 180, 190, 192, 195, 200. Etc. There is no other spec. If there is more specs you best off posting them up because I don't know of any other spec. 

 

10 minutes ago, NIsaacs said:

Still using the Cummins 3946849 190F stat, that is linked above by Mike and I, under the fitment notes, it says: "requires a 55 mm housing bore". I believe it should be 58mm. I wonder what that is all about?

 

Both my truck and @mr.obvious both have the 58mm bore. Both are 2002 trucks. Try again. That Cummins thermostat never made grade below 190*F.

 

16 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

I am not sure why you're so stuck on it, when anyone who actually looks at it realizes it's not correct for the application.

Umm... Not correct? Try again, Same thermostat. Please tell Cummins and T-Bred they are listing the wrong one!

 

https://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/3946849/

 

cummins-3946849

 

Cummins Thermostat (190 Degrees) - 00-02 5.9L Cummins - 3946849
 

Correct application, try again! Just never made the grade temps under 190*F constantly. 

 

Just called Rocky Mountain Cummins had him verify for sure 00-02 5.9L Cummins - 3946849 this is the correct thermostat and what you see posted above is CORRECT! This is not a wrong application. This is correct for the 00 to 02 trucks for sure. 

 

Edited by Mopar1973Man
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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

I do! Then I can buy it at the manufacture for a reduced cost WITHOUT the logo. 

 

Maybe, maybe not. Some OEM's have contracts that don't allow for that. 

 

Quote

 

 

Thermostat the spec is on the bottom of the bulb of when it opens. 180, 190, 192, 195, 200. Etc. There is no other spec. If there is more specs you best off posting them up because I don't know of any other spec. 

 

 

I've told you the FULL specs for opening on this form several times... so you can search for it if you want it, but I doubt you'll spend the time. 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Both my truck and @mr.obvious both have the 58mm bore. Both are 2002 trucks. Try again. That Cummins thermostat never made grade below 190*F.

 

 

Quote

Umm... Not correct? Try again, Same thermostat. Please tell Cummins and T-Bred they are listing the wrong one!

 

I mean holy crap... you, and others, have had an issue with it but you're defending it as being proper. It doesn't even look close to correct, but it has to be! :doh: Just when you think you've seen everything...

 

It's amazing how you think there are better manufactures than Cummins, yet think Cummins is flawless in their part numbers and applications. It's visually apparent it is designed for a different head, and very likely an application error.. but i digress, you can't see the forest for the trees.  If the part looks wrong, with the "correct" part number then don't run it. It would never have made it in my truck had I pulled it out of the box and it looked like that.... nor would the one on the far right of your photo in post earlier.. it's not a good design to match the head, it's a cheap design to reduce the cost of the part. There is a reason the bypass portion looks different than all the others, it's cheaper and doesn't appear better. 

 

Thou that's not really the topic of this thread, it's OEM vs non-OEM... and like @NIsaacs said, I don't know of anyone looking at it that black and white. 

Edited by AH64ID

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24 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

 

 

 

Both my truck and @mr.obvious both have the 58mm bore. Both are 2002 trucks. Try again. 

 

https://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/3946849/

 

cummins-3946849

 

 

 

Try again, what? I just pointed out that the 2000-2002 used a 58mm stat, but the Cummins 190F 3946849 pictured, suggests it is 55mm, and I asked how could that be??  If it is, it is going to leak past the seal on a 58mm bore and run cold.

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Posted (edited)

That is a 58mm thermostat. I just check with Rocky Mountain Cuymmins. Try again that is the CORRECT application period. 

 

48 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

It's amazing how you think there are better manufactures than Cummins

Again, Cummins does not manufacture thermostats. They buy from other manufactures and rebox them with there number that's all. 

 

48 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

yet think Cummins is flawless in their part numbers and applications.

It the correct part but the part did not hold the temperature properly. Period.

 

My point is to go to the manufacture of the thermostat and buy it directly WITHOUT the logo. I would love to just know who is producing the thermostat and buy directly from the manufacture since Cummins does not manufacture them. Then you can still have the same thermostat as Cummins sells but from the manufacture at a fraction of the cost with the same 190*F spec.

 

48 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

It's visually apparent it is designed for a different head, and very likely an application error..

I called Rocky Mountain Cummins and it is the correct thermostat. It is the correct application for 2000 to 2002 5.9L Cummins ISB engines. 

 

48 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

it's not a good design to match the head, it's a cheap design to reduce the cost of the part.

This is what Cummins is supplying currently. Again I've double checked with Rocky Mountain Cummins in Boise, Idaho. 

 

Here is the same number in Mopar.

https://www.amazon.com/Chrysler-5015708AC-Genuine-Thermostat/dp/B00G0PKV94

 

Here is Cummins again.

https://puredieselpower.com/dodge-products/98.5-02-dodge-5.9l-cummins-190-thermostat.html

 

https://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/3946849/

 

Please explain to all these part vendors how they screwed up please...

 

Edited by Mopar1973Man

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Posted (edited)

Experience with buying 3-4 mechanical lift pumps for a 92 12 valve I had for years showed Cummins sold me the same cheaper part that the auto parts sold and was not the original well made lift pump, only a higher price with better cardboard box to make you think it was better. 

 

Next run to Cummins revealed a well made, in U.S.A., Vibration damper needed for the 01. Much better built than the aftermarket lighter weight damper available from Dorman. I do not like Dorman quality anyway. 

Edited by JAG1
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Done some digging and getting closer. 

 

Robertshaw manufactures that style of thermostat. 

 

Cummins...

cummins-3946849

 

Robertshaw 330 series looks almost the same. Commonly used in racing applications still sold through Summit racing.

Related image

 

Now I'm trying to find a contact information for Robertshaw Automotive division. Then to verify the thermostat Cummins has to Robertshaw number if possible. These thermostats are sold for a mere $20 on Summit. This might be the break where Cummins owners could buy $20 thermostat from Robertshaw WITHOUT the Cummins logo and $40-60 price tag.

 

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On 8/7/2019 at 4:28 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

 

Another one, I was told by Eric @ Vulcan Performance to just call Cummins Dealer and order crossover tubes. OMG! $420 bucks for all 6 connector tubes. I refused to pay the $70 a piece price for Cummins logo'ed crossover tube. I had Eric order the set from his supplier took a huge savings. 

 

Just few example of wasteful spending just for OEM parts. 

 

Genuine Bosch tube from DAP $25.00

 

https://www.dieselautopower.com/bosch-cross-over-fuel-connector-tube-f00zr20002

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