Swapping a nv 4500 for a 5600

[jlwelding]

What is involved in replacing the nv4500 with the 6 speed? I cant keep a 5 speed evidently, I believe they just skimp by on parts or something. The only other thing I can think of is I'm running the amsoil synthetic.

[dripley]

Bell housing and drive shaft come to mind.

[Dieselfuture]

Depends on the year, I believe in 01 they went with bigger input shaft so you'll need a bigger clutch. Personally I would upgrade to a bigger shaft now and go with bigger clutch unless you get the later model 56. And like @dripley mentioned driveshafts, bell housing that should come with the trans, maybe cross member. 

I like amsoil in mine, haven't had any issues with it and it's twice cheaper then dealer stuff and little more then pennzoil if you get an account at amsoil. I just signed up for half a year and got enough stuff to last 5 years, then I'll do it again. I also like my filter, just serviced it few months ago after 4 years and it trapped a lot of brass and oil was clean so I know it works. I also overfill mine to top side holes of pto cover. 

[Mopar1973Man]

I would opt to keep the NV4500. More common and less to rebuld. Just remember I pay only $1,800 for rebuild for each of these failures. NV5600 are closer to $4,500 a rebuild. Even with me breaking all the teeth off the 5th gear and then snapping the mainshaft in half I would never upgrade to NV5600 transmission. 423k miles and still running the NV4500 but with brass syncros and Mobil 50 SAE Trans Fluid GL-4. Yeah I've even burned up 2 sets of brass syncros (defective). Still way cheaper to fix a NV4500. You have to Remember NV5600 was only made for a few years for Dodge parts are expensive and sometimes hard to get ahold of.

 

Just remember I'm close to the 500 HP realm. DAP +150 HP injectors (7 X 0.010 @ 320 bar), Valair Organic Dual Disc, +180 HP Quadzilla Adrenaline, HX35/40 Hybrid Turbo (60/60/12). Still won't upgrade to NV5600. Turn up the Quad from Level 2 which is what I run typically (stock fuel with timing) turn it up to level 7 which is full wire tap and CANBus I can roast the tires in about any gear I wish. Hence why I tend to run level 2.

 

https://mopar1973man.com/garage/vehicle/101-2002-dodge-ram-2500/?show=mods

 

You'll need the bell housing, starter spacer, and a clutch being the input shaft might be different.  

 

 

 

1st and 2nd gear are carbon fiber still, 3rd ,4th, 5th, and reverse are brass. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[jlwelding]

On my second rebuilt trans in a year. Both trans are full of metal or alum. I wish I knew how to put pics on here, you would say wth.
Of course they are dragging their feet mean while my shop is shut down with truck in the bay. Where do you find those filters? Also I am filling trans from the top with 4 qts, can it hold more if so how much more?

 

[Mopar1973Man]

I never over fill anymore being that causes foaming of the fluid. I use the Mobil 50 SAE trans fluid being its THICKER (90 weight gear oil) and clings to the bearing and gears better. I've never had bad shift so far after going through 2 bad sets of syncros. It is a synthetic fluid and GL-4. No issues to report. The factory 75w-85 was too expensive so after talking to my transmission builder he suggest the Mobil 50 long time ago. 

 

Abe @ Weller Truck, Boise Idaho  - (208) 331-1061

https://www.google.com/search?q=weller+truck+boise

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[Tractorman]

@jlwelding, are you considering the swap for your 2001 truck in your signature (doesn't show transmission)?  If so, I would definitely consider the swap, especially since the truck weighs in at 10,000 lbs.  

 

NV4500 - input torque 460 lb/ft, dry weight 195 lb.

NV5600 - input torque 550 lb/ft, dry weight 360 lb.

 

Compare gear ratios.   First gear and the two top gears are virtually the same for both transmissions.  However, the NV5600 offers one more gear where you need it, making it a close ratio transmission.  You will feel the difference in performance., especially getting a load moving from a stop on an upgrade.

 

I am approaching 350,000 miles on my truck and I have had no problems with the transmission.  Of course, I am no where near @Mopar1973Man's 500 hp, but my truck has been known to break traction on a snowpack.

 

- John

 

 

 

 

[Dieselfuture]



4 hours ago, jlwelding said:

Where do you find those filters? Also I am filling trans from the top with 4 qts, can it hold more if so how much more?

Which transmission are we talking about, if 45 then no need to overfill. If 56 I was told to overfill by someone that rebuilds them, 1 qt over, you can drive in the ditch or take out shifter tower which is what I do. I add more than 1qt because of filter on one side and cooler on the other. Last 4 years I did that no I'll effects, but I only put around 10k a year if that. Filter I got is from quad 4x4 https://torqueking.com/product/1000/qk1000-manual-trans-filter-kit/

Fast cooler offers some too, but was too big next to my 5" exhaust. 

https://torqueking.com/product/661015/qk1015-filter-and-double-cooler-kit-for-manual-transmissions/

From what I can figure, filter needs to be on passenger side so I went with cooler on driver side and smaller filter on driver. 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

The overfill on NV5600 I feel is because PenzOil Syncromesh is too thin. Is so thin it does NOT meet the GL-4 rating and its not synthetic so failure is much more common. 

[dripley]

The over fill on the 5600 was to get more oil back to the 6th gear bearing as have always understood. Had nothing to do with the Sychromesh being thin. At least as far as I have read. Last time I checked a rebuild on the 5600 it was about $3k, as long as no hard parts have to be replaced. Got that from Cody at Super Stick out in texas about a year, year and a half ago. I still see folks advertising $2500 for one but know nothing about them.

 

As far as the Syncromesh is concerned, it says on the bottle it meets Mopar specs and has since I started using it. Surely Mopar would have raised a stink if they were claiming something that was not true. Anyway I have had no issues while using it myself and there does not seem to be any failure rate attributed to just the Penzoil. None I have seen anyway.

[AH64ID]

17 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

The overfill on NV5600 I feel is because PenzOil Syncromesh is too thin. Is so thin it does NOT meet the GL-4 rating and its not synthetic so failure is much more common. 
 

 

Syncromesh is NOT supposed to meet the GL-4 rating, so that’s a good thing. Don’t try to make it meet a spec it’s not designed for. 
 

Not to mention GL-4 isn’t a thickness spec and there are GL-4’s the same thickness as syncromesh. Thickness and GL spec are 2 different things, which is why they are both printed on the bottle. 
 

As @dripleymentioned overfill has nothing to do with the lube thickness. 
 

IIRC, overfill was highly recommended  

in early models, the later ones had a hole drilled that moved more fluid to the rear bearing. Many rebuild shops also add this hole if it wasn’t there originally. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by AH64ID

[jlwelding]

Can anyone recommend a trans re builder (nv4500), I have been jumping through hoops with powertrain products since last Thursday. I showed them 3 pics of aluminum in oil, I even sent a short video. Not a word from these people, Im going through another weekend with my truck all over my shop. I think for my sanity I just need to cut ties with worthless people and buy another trans.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by jlwelding

[Mopar1973Man]

Weller truck has been good to me.Always been good price between $1,500 to $1,800 for a full rebuild and any replacement parts. 

 

Weller Truck - Dallas
3113 Skyway Circle N
Irving, TX 75038-3526
(972) 258-0460

 

Who I use...

 

Weller Truck - Boise
8484 West Victory Rd
Boise, ID 83709-4169
(208) 331-1061

 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[AH64ID]

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Weller truck has been good to me.Always been good price between $1,500 to $1,800 for a full rebuild and any replacement parts. 

 

Weller Truck - Dallas
3113 Skyway Circle N
Irving, TX 75038-3526
(972) 258-0460

 

Who I use...

 

Weller Truck - Boise
8484 West Victory Rd
Boise, ID 83709-4169
(208) 331-1061

 

 

 

I’ll be honest, with what you have gone thru on your NV4500 since they first touched it has taken them off my list of places to go. 
 

I get bad luck, but you have had more than your fare share of it since the first rebuild. Something doesn’t add up. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Yeah, so I had a bad batch of syncros, this batch is good. 

 

First failure - Mainshaft broke 3rd and 4th gear. Kept all carbon fiber...

 

Second failure - Pilot bearing fell out f the flywheel (Southbend CON OFE) and ruined the input shaft, main shaft, and ate 5th gear. Ditch carbon fiber went to brass.

 

After that second repair, I did have two sets of bad syncros. 

             First set syncros of defective brass syncros (3rd and 4th)

             Second set syncros of defective carbon syncro (2nd gear)

 

Now After getting a new set of syncro from a different supplier problem is gone. This is rare but does happen. 

 

Still running. On the current set smooth as butter shift yet.

 

Still would use then being Abe has backed me every time there was an issue. Yeah it sucks to pull it out and send it back in. But he's always stood behind his work and always made it right again. 

 

So just because of a defective parts you would turn away...

 

Even I (myself) make mistakes and just to show this I did a thermostat for Jacob (Eileens son) typical job. New thermostat and gasket (square cut o-ring). Installed and let him run it and notice steam one even went back out with him clean it all up and installed and again. Ran to town and lost coolant again still leaking. After a 3rd time pulling it apart I found the thermostat housing was slightly bent preventing a good seal. A couple of hits with a small hammer and fix it now sealed. So should Jacob just never get service from me again because I (myself) since I had it leak twice? Sometimes you have to have failures to find the problem that your fighting. 

 

Maybe I should ditch my hosting company for the very same reason...? Still after 3 new IP addresses you are not able to get email from the M73M.com. Bad hosting company...? Or do we just hang in there and fix the problem. Hmm? 

 

Just because a few bad experiences does mean the (pick your place) is bad company, shop, store, person, etc. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Mopar1973Man

[jlwelding]

I agree, but its all stall tactics piss you off enough and you will go away. I called a hour ago and got the same guy I talked to last Friday. He says as soon as I get a ETA for you I'll let you know. He said that 6 days ago, and 4 emails.
But yes 2 trans from separate shops with aluminium, I say alum. cause thats what it looks like. I ran a magnet through the fill hole and got enough fine metal to make a nasty film on magnet. Both trans had the same problem, wont go into first gear with out putting in 3rd let out on clutch just enough to engage a little then back to first quick. I dont set at lights with my foot on the clutch so you got to pay attention if you dont get enough engagement in 3rd you got to do it again. I bought a complete top with shifting forks and shift tower just never put it in on the first trans. The second trans didnt make it that long.
We had a little difficulty aligning the holes up on the mount (cross member) when we put that trans in, had to push to the right got it ok, so before we pulled trans I backed off the motor mounts and it was easier to pull. I dont think that would be a problem do you? I mean once its bolted down it dosent have a force on it besides the ujoints would have to be so outa wack it would be stupid.

[AH64ID]

4 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Yeah, so I had a bad batch of syncros, this batch is good. 

 

First failure - Mainshaft broke 3rd and 4th gear. Kept all carbon fiber...

 

Second failure - Pilot bearing fell out f the flywheel (Southbend CON OFE) and ruined the input shaft, main shaft, and ate 5th gear. Ditch carbon fiber went to brass.

 

After that second repair, I did have two sets of bad syncros. 

             First set syncros of defective brass syncros (3rd and 4th)

             Second set syncros of defective carbon syncro (2nd gear)

 

Now After getting a new set of syncro from a different supplier problem is gone. This is rare but does happen. 

 

Still running. On the current set smooth as butter shift yet.

 

Still would use then being Abe has backed me every time there was an issue. Yeah it sucks to pull it out and send it back in. But he's always stood behind his work and always made it right again. 

 

So just because of a defective parts you would turn away...

 

Even I (myself) make mistakes and just to show this I did a thermostat for Jacob (Eileens son) typical job. New thermostat and gasket (square cut o-ring). Installed and let him run it and notice steam one even went back out with him clean it all up and installed and again. Ran to town and lost coolant again still leaking. After a 3rd time pulling it apart I found the thermostat housing was slightly bent preventing a good seal. A couple of hits with a small hammer and fix it now sealed. So should Jacob just never get service from me again because I (myself) since I had it leak twice? Sometimes you have to have failures to find the problem that your fighting. 

 

Maybe I should ditch my hosting company for the very same reason...? Still after 3 new IP addresses you are not able to get email from the M73M.com. Bad hosting company...? Or do we just hang in there and fix the problem. Hmm? 

 

Just because a few bad experiences does mean the (pick your place) is bad company, shop, store, person, etc. 

 

 

Just pointing out what it looks like from a bystander... it's not something I would want to experience, so it's not a place I'd likely go. Abe may very well be a great guy, and a great mechanic but you had multiple issues. 

 

Just like you like NAPA parts and I won't shop there unless it's a last resort. Too many issues over the years. 

[Mopar1973Man]

Ok like NAPA so where do I buy parts at? Hmmm...?  No other part stores around. No autozone, no pep boys, no o'rilley's, etc. Just NAPA. 

 

Again like the hosting company shgould I just pack up and move because they still can't get a clean IP address?

 

We can't keep running and bad mouthing everything because of issues. If I did that I would be screwed without apart store to even get parts. But i undserstand how to get thing figured out and dealt with even NAPA. I've gone as far as being credit for lost time before because of faulty parts. But I can't just say no NAPA because there is nothing else up here. Both McCall and Council are owned by the same person so take your pick you still dealing with the same store. 

 

So shoulld I say no more blue top steering because I got a bad unit with nick in the output shaft and it leaked twice? 

 

Should I say no more ISSPro gauges because my pyrometer burned up backk in 2016?

 

Should turn by back on AirDog 150 because it didn't hold up as long as suppose too?

 

Crap happens... I deal with and move on in a proper manner. Being choices are limted for me I've got to keep what I got going... I do the next bestt thing and figure out why parts fail... Hence why like ball joints are now over 200k miles old. Brake pads lasted over 200k miles (economy NAPA). Hmmm... How about some of the research on HFRRand fuels... 

 

Must be doing something right to still have my truck after 423k miles still rolling... Haven't blown an engine either... Still making more power than 5th gen...

[Doubletrouble]

@Mopar1973Man, do you think that the sycro failures, even though defective, would have lasted longer behind an engine with less hp/tq than what your putting out? Just curious.

 Also, to touch on the napa debate. I used to use autozone exclusively but their quality has gone to crap. Advance auto doesn't seem to be much better anymore. I tend to use napa when I need better more heavy duty parts and so far have had no issues. 

 I've known several people that worked at stores other than napa that explained how the lifetime warranty works. The parts are cheap enough that they can afford to hand over 2 or 3 for free when they break. Replacement part quality has gone down hill in the years I've been wrenching. That's just my experience, not trying to provoke anything.

[NIsaacs]

45 minutes ago, Doubletrouble said:

@Mopar1973Man, do you think that the sycro failures, even though defective, would have lasted longer behind an engine with less hp/tq than what your putting out? Just curious.

 

 

No, power has nothing to do with syncro's. The clutch is released (no power) when you shift.

 

Syncro's can be bad (poor quality) from the get go, bad shifting habits, the wrong oil type or poor maintenance, or poor releasing clutch, are possible reasons for early failure.