99 auto immediately after refreshed injectors stalls when placed in D or R

[JoeMcCaz]

New annual member here. I'm hoping someone on this site can help figure out what's causing the stall issue.

Without writing a novel, as I have on other forums, I'll be as brief as possible and try to provide as much info to help repliers and to ward off 50million posts that will just skew and clog this thread. In advance, no offense intended and I welcome all well thought thru replies, Thanks.

 

I acquired my truck (wish I could figure out how to create a signature?) in May of 2001 it had 75k on it and bone stock.

July 2001 installed gauges: combo boost/egt, fuel psi and trans temp.

Spring 2003 with 130k trans started slipping, had DTT master rebuild done. Outside of trans build, alignments and tire installations "no one" has wrenched on my truck but me.

Fall 2003 Formula1 (now FDI) Mach 1.6 (85hp) injectors, Edge Comp (VP tapped) and relocate LP to frame. At some point I got it on a chassis dyno and it rolled like 350hp & 790tq.

Fall 2006 Mach 5 (200hp), HTT QD 64/14 turbo, Vulcan Draw Straw, Walbro pusher pump, big line (1/2) kit and spin on filter at frame. Spring Fling 2007 rolled 525hp & 1000tq. 

March 2009 original VP just died. New VP installed back on-line.

Fast forward to Fall 2020 and 260k miles, hazing at idle more than I cared for, sent injectors to F1 for a refresh figured they were pretty old and had in excess of 130k miles or so on them it was time to give the old gal a tune-up.

Immediately after receiving and installing the injectors the truck began stalling when placed in gear (Drive-D or Reverse-R) or if it didn't stall the idle (850) would violently/quickly drop to 500 and then jump back to 850.

 

There's more to the story since Fall 2020, but don't want to create a novel in my first post and don't want to skew fresh thoughts from you all with things done since then.

 

Have at it guys and gals. I so look forward to your replies.

[Mopar1973Man]

What is the engine load in park or neutral?

What is your idle speed in park?

What pop pressure were the injectors set to?

[JoeMcCaz]

8 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Thanks for your reply.

What is the engine load in park or neutral? Not sure what you mean = "Engine Load" in P or N ??? Are you referring to electrical load? Sorry not following. If electrical load - how and where to measure with volt/ohm meter and set at AC or DC? Sorry I'm not as astute with auto electrical as I am with mechanicals.

What is your idle speed in park? Idle speed has always been 850, regardless if in P-N-D-R.

What pop pressure were the injectors set to? I haven't a clue? They were rebuilt by same company that originally built for me years ago https://www.fluxdiesel.com/98-5-2002-5-9-cummins

 

[Dieselfuture]

You need a scan tool that can reed life data to see engine load. It should be around 6-10 could be lower or higher but in that range you're ok. To me it sounds like your problem is in injectors, but we need more data to troubleshoot. Idle should be around 800 if yours is at 850 then you're injectors have low pop pressure and ecm can't adjust fuel to run right.

[JoeMcCaz]

Not going to be able to get scan tool that'll read engine load as outlined above.

Not trying to be argumentative or a smart Alec, if 800 is where the idle should be and not 850 then from the time I acquired the truck (05/01 bone stock as mentioned in OP) the idle has always been too high (and every other 2nd gen 24v auto, or stick, I've seen at shows, dyno events and the ones my friends have owned idled at 850) that would mean the pop pressures on the stock, as well as every other set of injectors I've installed over the years have been too low, sorry doesn't make sense. From the in dash tack, whatever the lines mean between the numbers, the idle has always been the same be it 800 or 850.

 

Let's say if the reason for stalling is because pop pressures are, and have always been too low on every other set of injectors over the years, wouldn't the truck have always stalled, and why hasn't the truck (at whatever idle which it has always idled at) never, ever, stalled before - when placed into gear or under any other circumstance, until recent installation of refreshed injectors? Once again I'm not disagreeing or questioning your knowledge/expertise, I'm just replying that this doesn't make sense. 

 

A bit of not mentioned in OP info.

After stalling began (immediately after installation of refreshed injectors) I called Flux Diesel and spoke with April and Don. In an effort to eliminate the refreshed injectors as reason the truck began stalling they sent me a newly built set of Mach 5's (at no extra charge over the original cost of refreshing). Remember a few things here:

1- I purchased the Mach 5's from Flux back when they were known as Formula 1, installed Fall of 2006 and never had any problem with the truck.

2-I sent these same Mach 5's to them to be freshened up.

 

All I've said in this post is reason I'm saying the reply to OP just doesn't add up.

 

Thanks for all replies.

Edited April 11, 2021 by JoeMcCaz

[Mopar1973Man]

1 hour ago, JoeMcCaz said:

the idle has always been the same be it 800 or 850.

 

Popped too low in pressure id your rising above 800 RPM at all. All Cummins ISB engine idle at 800 RPM. The only way to increase idle speed is to drop the pop pressure below 290 bar. Then to show the specs even Dodge FSM specs say 293 bar is bottom. Like my OEM stock injectors tested out at 260 bar at 120k miles. The idle was 850 RPM. 

 

 

Span plus or minus...

4500 - 250 = 4250

4500 + 250 = 4750

 

PSI to Bar

4500 PSI = 310 Bar stock

4250 PSI = 293 Bar

4750 PSI = 327 Bar

 

Proper injectors should hover with +/- 10 RPM from 800 RPM. The engine load should be like 7% to 10%. 

 

Show you reversal. I'm 7 x 0.010 injectors (+150 HP) and popped at 320 bar. Cleaner, no smoke, slightly less flow but idles exactly 800 RPM +/- 5 RPM. Engine load when new was 13 to 14% this shows the VP44 working a bit harder to get pop pressure. Now with nearly 100k miles on the injectors I'm down to 6 to 7% engine load but rock solid at 800 RPM idle. 

 

NOTE: There is members that had injectors loose over -10 bar after running about 20k to 40k miles. If you popped too low near the lower margin then it will be a very short life of the injectors. Like shops popping for 300 bar only last like bare 50k to 75k miles and already popping too low. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Mopar1973Man

[JoeMcCaz]

Thanks. All good information. Way over my head.

 

I'm not questioning or disagreeing with your reply. Whatever the idle is, be it 800 or 850 (factory Tach is simple indicator), it has always and continues to be "the same". This "the same" (idle) means from the time I purchased it in 5/01 w/75,000 mile in bone stock configuration, thru the years and several different injectors, up to and including right now=today with over 255,000 miles.

 

Still asking why "never stalled before" and "immediately after installing" refreshed injectors it began stalling, "and" then continues to do so with the "newly built" injectors?

[Mopar1973Man]

There was another member here with the exact same issue. DTT transmission with stalling. Everyone swore the torque converter was the problem. Nope. He had his injectors sent back to DAP and had then popped for 325 bar IIRC. The stalling issues STOPPED completely. The pop pressure was too low making the injection event too early and the engine could not recover quick enough so it stalls. After @pepsi71oceanupped the pop pressure his stalling quit. Might take ot him and ask him for more details of what he's done.

 

Like my truck I had a set of +75 HP 7 x 0.0085 SAC injectors after a long run down the interstate and get to Boise my truck as a manual would stall coming to a stop again this set was popped to 305 bar. After have those swapped out and went back to VCO injectors and popped at 310 bar all was well again but the life span was a mere 75k miless and started to misfire after that. This when I built the 7 x 0.010 VCO injectors popped at 320 bar. 

[AH64ID]

After reading the other two threads on TDR it’s worth an investigation into the pop pressure. Maybe it’s as simple as calling F1, but you might have to remove them to have them tested. 
 

You also had some surging at idle, which low pop would effect too. 

[JoeMcCaz]

John, You busted me on the TDR threads. I appreciate you reading both as they were indeed novels and exercises in futility - not because of replies just because what was planned to be a simple tune up and remove the exhaust haze turned into the nightmare I'm living with.

 

After I thought a good deal regarding Mopar1973man's post "Specifications" and his next one "There was another member here" I did want to reply that I'd most likely call FDI and ask about specs they set injectors at (asking if they go by the specs that were mentioned above) when building them, but I decide not to yet.

 

I just wanted to step away from all this for a bit, outside of the truck situation there's about 2 or 3 other non truck related things going on that are similar to the truck thing, you know things that are supposed to be simple and go smoothly that just find a way to screw everything up. But after reading that you had read the other two TDR threads I was pleased that you read them and just had to reply today as follows; 

-Thank you for reading the dreaded threads on TDR outlining what I've experienced and tried thus far, and

-I will contact FDI and inquire about the specs they use when testing after building.

 

If FDI can quick turn around I'm might consider sending the injectors back and ask them to set as outlined (above)? Or perhaps and actually preferable to me, if I can find a reputable shop near me (BTW: near me is Levittown, PA 19057 presently) that'll bench test injectors while I'm there = I'll remove them, hop in car and drive to shop then reinstall.

 

The difficulty for me - because I've always done it all myself - is finding a reputable shop. I know of a few diesel shops near me but have no knowledge of what they do and/or their reputation.

 

Any suggestions regarding experiences with good shops near me are greatly welcomed.

 

That's it for now and I need to just let this go for a bit, I'm bald as it is and there's no hair to pull out so...

 

Thanks again guys.

[Haggar]

Joe,

 

Finding a "good" diesel shop is going to take some leg work on your part.  The "good" diesel shops work on commercial vehicles, not residential stuff.   So what you need to do is familiarize yourself with some commercial vehicle repair shops.  (I am not sure how much farming is near you, but shops that work on the BIG tractors 150hp+ would work too)   See if there is a Volvo, Freightliner,  dealer etc near you.  ( it appears that Freighliner of Philadelphia lists levittown as its home)  go talk to the mechanics there.  They will tell you what shop is good with injectors near by (or not near by...)  

 

Do not be in a hurry and be super humble.  But with the right questions in the parts/service department you will find the information you want.  Let other customers go ahead of you if they know what they want etc.  you are asking for information that really won't pay this stores bills.  be super flexible and just listen.  One of the customers there might listen in and pitch in with who they were happy with.

 

GL  HTH
 

Hag

[JoeMcCaz]

Good thoughts for sure. Information is (usually) free - good information is priceless.

 

I get needed Cummins parts at the local Cummins/Onan shop and have an account there. Probably best place to start. Difficulty is the parts dept door is locked, due to CV19, you have to call from outside, order parts, they come out get payment then bring you your parts, so calling is probably way to go. 

[dripley]

Just to add from my experience with my truck. It has always idled around 805, per the tach. The only it has been higher was on higher mileage injectors, around 850 rpm. A new set has always brought it back to 805 or so. Though not all of these trucks act the same.

[JoeMcCaz]

Appreciate you sharing the information dripley. 

[JoeMcCaz]

Reply from Flux to my pop-off psi question... Thoughts...

 

From Don

We use an opening (pop) pressure of 285 to 290 bar. The nozzle is designed for this. Actually the used ones drop to the 260 and below range often. This lower pressure has never been an issue for us, but the higher pressure settings have. Anything over about 305 has caused a few trucks to run rough at idle. 

[dripley]

IIRC 260 bar is right at the bottom range. I ran my oe injectors for well over 200k miles, probably closer to 250k. mine idled around 850 rpm. Lord only knows what the pop pressure on those were. But I never lost any fuel economy or power best I could tell. I put in a set of RV275's and the idle went back down to 800. Nice bump in power and picked up 1 mpg those. As I remember they should have been popped around 305 bar but never had them checked. They were new ones from Bosch. My last 2 sets were popped at 310 bar. I have never had any issues with any popped over 300 bar and several here are running 320 bar with no complaints.

[Cummins1401]

M having almost same issue. 99 auto as well dap injectors 

 

[Haggar]

I love "the nozzles are designed for this..."  OK.  so they are.  they make a proper pattern at a lower pressure.  That is a total dodge (pun not intended) to the question asked.   How does the injector backward command the pump to respond to the earlier timing of the first fuel flow and the longer open window of the injector time?  Hey in the old days you would just adjust the timing of the pump a bit to get it level out.  Run out there and adjust your timing on pump.....ooops.   can't advance or retard the VP easily.  you could with keys.....

 

None of us has really played with it as a serious scientific study.  But there is some good data here from people with good engines that have investigated playing with pop pressure.  None of it is proven so it is still a theorem.  But I would say I have seen some great empirical data that suggests higher pop pressures (to a point: cold start begins to suffer and higher elevation guys noted oddities) smooth idle out. 

 

Just my $0.002

Hag

[JoeMcCaz]

At this point I'm asking friend (previously mentioned having engine built but not yet run) that got RV275's if he still has OE injectors to give them a try. If not I'm thinking about acquiring a set of stock or RV275's just to test against Mach 5's. 

 

Just sent email to Flux:

Please thank Don for his reply. I seem to recall a difference from Don's nozzles compared to OEM, but I could be confused? Without getting too technical what are the differences relative to Fulx's nozzle design as compared to OEM; more holes, different material or? Just trying to understand.

Thanks

 

And the plot thickens.... So worn out over this....

[JoeMcCaz]

Got tire of all the...stuff??? 

 

Ordered a "new" set of RV275's from Dale's Super Store (https://dalessuperstore.com/i-23916207-5-9-cummins-rv275hp-injector-set-432193635-1998-5-2002-dodge-cummins-5-9l.html), confirmed new not reman, they gave me a promo code for $10 off, free shipping, 3 day delivery, and no core to return, $305.00 to my door.

 

We'll see what this yields, hopefully no stall and the idle at wherever it is supposed to be. I'm believing Mopar1973man's reply WTE "All ISB engines idle at 800 +/- 10 rpms.

 

Just want to be able to drive without stalling at this point. Still awaiting reply from Flux on difference in the nozzles they build versus stock. 

 

Keep your fingers and toes crossed ladies and gents... 

 

More to come...