Gen 3 track bar conversion

[wil440]

I've had a Gen 3 track bar and conversion bracket on the shelf now for over 10 years, originally bought for my 3500 but never got around to it

I've been getting more and more ~~~~ed off with steering wander on my 2500 recently so decided to bite the bullet today and fit the 3rd gen bar and bracket as there is a tad of wear in the ball joint end as per usual.

Axle end bolt seized solid in the steel sleeve in the bush then stripped the welded nut in the steel plate keeper GGGRRR, ended up drilling the bolt out, luckily I got it just right and didn't even damage the bush sleeve or the bolt holes in the axle bracket. All off and on the floor ready for tomorrow

Got to find a replacement bolt and make a new captive nut tomorrow but it looks like at first glance that a 3rd gen bar has a bigger bolt at the axle end anyway will know better tomorrow when it's light.

Job should have taken a couple of hours max, took 6 hours to drill the bolt and split the ball joint, slowly slowly catchee monkey, no broken drills, smack in the centre of the bolt and to make matters worse just as I'd gone past the point of no return the phone rings and a job on a bobcat skid steer 45 miles away... oh well that can wait till truck is done

[Haggar]

Good job nailing the center!!!   I usually blow that and spend another 3-5 hours trying to finger out how to fix that too!

 

GL

Hag

[wil440]

6 hours ago, Haggar said:

Good job nailing the center!!!   I usually blow that and spend another 3-5 hours trying to finger out how to fix that too!

 

GL

Hag

Plenty of practice getting Cat bottom roller and roller guard bolts out of track frames upside down I'm afraid, my usual trick is to drill out and leave say a 1/16th if the bolt diameter is large enough, then cut a slot in it using a slimmed down hacksaw blade in a air saw, then collapse it a little and wind out, this works great on Cat exhaust manifold bolts too, need to leave a half decent thickness to be able to get it to collapse always drilled with Snap On Cobalt drills but very steady as break one of those and it is game over, couldn't use this method with the axle end on the truck though as no gap at the back to use the hacksaw blade

 

Anyway got it all bolted up and the steering is  much better, steering feels nice and tight, I'll be on the motorway (highway) tomorrow so we'll see how that is as motorway was the worst

 

I can't remember who the manufacturer of the bracket was as I bought it pre 2008 at least maybe 2004 ish but more thought should have gone into it

 

1. A stock 3rd gen bar has 5/8th bolts, stock 2nd gen uses 1/2" bolts, bracket came with 1/2" UNF bolts WHY..... what is the point designing in a possible 1/8th play in both ends, yes I see if the bolts stay tight everything is more than likely going to be ok as the 3rd gen bushes have teeth to grip the sides of the mounts, I drilled the bracket and axle to 5/8th and used  Cat 5/8th UNF 10.9 bolts and Nylok nut on the bracket end, axle end I cut the stripped stock 1/2" nut off of it's keeper plate, trimmed down a Nylok nut as there is limited clearance behind and welded that to the original keeper plate

2. There is a long bolt that goes through the crossmember.... pretty much in the middle of the bracket, both the top and bottom faces of this crossmember are not square with the bolt hole in either the x member  or the bracket, mickey mouse washers are supplied and after tightening this bolt the head of the bolt and the nut are buried in the washers on one side due to the angle, I checked on forums and this is "OK " and how it is...... err no that is not good enough, i've had to bolt it up but tapered washers is all it needs, I'll just make a pair if I can't find any ( i've used some before but can't remember just now where they were from or what they were for  but I will.

3.The taper where the original bar goes into the frame.... the nut and bolt for this comes with a taper bush so it is tight and can't move, not so as the taper bush is about an 1/8th short of the taper in the frame, it goes into the frame taper from below just like the original bar and converts this into a straight bore hole, but it is short so even when bolted up it can drop down, once down the tapers have free play, it should have been longer than the frame taper and the instructions (this is Number 4) should say trim to suit so it has a little crush.

4. No instructions at all and yes I do remember opening the box way back when this arrived.... there was no instructions, if there was instructions I wouldn't have spent an hour on tinternet trying to figure out what goes where,  now you could say.... it's a bracket how hard can it be, well at the frame taper a washer is needed underneath the bracket as a spacer and there is a washer included thats the very thickness needed, there is also a 2" ish spacer that who knows where that is supposed to be, it's now in the bolt box

 

I try not to buy anything from china but they do at least include instructions, always in martian and nothing to do with the actual stuff you bought and the stuff you bought is not fit for FA, USA made parts are fit for purpose from my experience BUT if the "KIT" covers more than mine please make me aware of that, I cannot read the designers mind

[wil440]

Drove maybe 25 miles today to collect filters for 2 services I'm doing tomorrow, truck is 99% better but still not perfect

 

I have a stupid question which I think I know but here goes Please correct me if I'm wrong

On the lower control arms the adjustable washers are slim to the rear and fat to the front, now from my motorcycle days that would mean rake (forks) is at the steepest and likely to be quite wild and wandering but fast steering, if the forks were kicked out everything gets nice and lazy, race bike against harley.....  my truck feels very skittish like a go kart and I think I need to adjust and get fat to the back, only asking as I know one bolt is siezed so I need to be sure before I have to drill that out too

Truck also doesn't self centre very good either.

I have a pair of Skyjacker stock length lower arms so might just bolt them on 

[IBMobile]

Fat to the front to make it "lazy"; increases caster.

[Haggar]

Do what you can to help the lower control arms be a bit longer.  This helps with our fixed caster on the 4wd vehicles.

 

GL
Hag

Edited April 16, 2021 by Haggar

[Mopar1973Man]

This is where like oversized tires and leveling kits fall into...

 

When any leveling kit it used it will steal the caster out as the axle is forced downward more. Typically a adjustable lower control arm is wanted. Then like track bars if there is a leveling kit installed then the thrust angle is typically wrong as it pulls the axle toward the passenger side. This is where you need a adjustable track bar. 

 

As long as you remain stock height and stock tire sizes then all stock parts can be used. 

[wil440]

18 hours ago, IBMobile said:

Fat to the front to make it "lazy"; increases caster.

 

6 hours ago, Haggar said:

Do what you can to help the lower control arms be a bit longer.  This helps with our fixed caster on the 4wd vehicles.

 

GL
Hag

Thanks for clarifying, I'll take a look over the weekend, I wonder if the skyjacker lower bars I have are longer if not I could always cut them and make them adjustable  

Done about 90 miles motorway today and it is better but not perfect,  I do probably need to check how it is in the lanes the big trucks cannot drive in as here 99% of the lanes they drive in have ruts and with wide tyres you are constantly up and down the sides, my 1984 landrover had 35" BFG's on it and that followed the ruts like a train, side to side always but never climbed out, only ever one set of wheels in them though as it wasn't wide enough Ram probably is though or at least close

4 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

This is where like oversized tires and leveling kits fall into...

 

When any leveling kit it used it will steal the caster out as the axle is forced downward more. Typically a adjustable lower control arm is wanted. Then like track bars if there is a leveling kit installed then the thrust angle is typically wrong as it pulls the axle toward the passenger side. This is where you need a adjustable track bar. 

 

As long as you remain stock height and stock tire sizes then all stock parts can be used. 

No levelling kit, taller tyres yes but wouldn't that increase castor ?  truck pivots around the rear axle anticlockwise like if you stood it on it's rear bumper the balljoints would be horizontal, can't get anymore caster than that.

I won't be taking my rims and tyres off for anything, If it does need adjustable arms I'll make a pair out of the skyjackers I have, Steering box brace and maybe a new box we'll see

[Dieselfuture]

Tire size shouldn't affect anything other than final ratio, what am I missing 

[wil440]

17 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

Tire size shouldn't affect anything other than final ratio, what am I missing 

You're missing nothing.... It makes  no difference at all, I was just outlining an extreme to show that a taller tyre actually increases caster but only if fitted ONLY on the front 

Fitted as a set as in front and  rear caster does not change one jot

I've said it before... we are all different and our trucks should be all different it's called choice, I for one don't want to ride around on dinner plates and if my wheels and tyres are causing this wander which I doubt I'll fix it but I won't be changing the tyres

Edited April 16, 2021 by wil440

[Tractorman]

@wil440, you might consider taking the truck to an alignment shop to get a printout of your current caster, camber, and toe settings.  That would give you a reference point as to where your caster setting is currently and help you to determine whether or not you want to change it, or how much you want to change it.  My truck came from the factory with about 3 degrees positive caster.  The truck was a wanderer.  I reset the caster to 4.5 degrees positive and the wandering ceased.  One of the best and least expensive steering mods I have made.

 

- John

 

[Mopar1973Man]

The only reason why I said what I did its really common out here that lift kits and tires are typically done together. Most assume just a 1 or 2 inch leveling kits is harmless and won't mess with the axle alignment which sadly is not true. Once you do any leveling ot lift kit in the front the thrust angle (track bar length is wrong) and then the lower control arm adjustment for caster cant get enough because of the axle pushed down caster is typically washed out why the huge amount of complaints about steering issues and wondering. 

[wil440]

8 hours ago, Tractorman said:

@wil440, you might consider taking the truck to an alignment shop to get a printout of your current caster, camber, and toe settings.  That would give you a reference point as to where your caster setting is currently and help you to determine whether or not you want to change it, or how much you want to change it.  My truck came from the factory with about 3 degrees positive caster.  The truck was a wanderer.  I reset the caster to 4.5 degrees positive and the wandering ceased.  One of the best and least expensive steering mods I have made.

 

- John

 

John did you forget I'm in the UK ...... alignment shop >>> no such thing here, tracking (toe in/out) is all thats done and I had to go buy a set of old Dunlop tracking gauges to set that myself as all this laser crap doesn't go big tyres

This is why I didn't know what to check as it's not checked here, no such measurements in the mainstream, might be able to get it checked at a wreck repair centre but these now are few and far between and  that would cost more than wandering off the motorway into a ditch    here the slightest damage to a vehicle it's squashed, 

I have never come across the washers on the lower control arms on anything other than Rams, certainly nothing here as in Landrover/Toyota etc 4x4

1 hour ago, Mopar1973Man said:

The only reason why I said what I did its really common out here that lift kits and tires are typically done together. Most assume just a 1 or 2 inch leveling kits is harmless and won't mess with the axle alignment which sadly is not true. Once you do any leveling ot lift kit in the front the thrust angle (track bar length is wrong) and then the lower control arm adjustment for caster cant get enough because of the axle pushed down caster is typically washed out why the huge amount of complaints about steering issues and wondering. 

My wheel/tyre is just at the very limit of clearance at the rear of the well, drops my cruising rpm just nice in ODLU and towing I watch EGT and drop into 3LU at near 900F, I'm very carefull of all this with a stock (as far as I know ) auto and a quad. I'm pretty sure my tyres aren't really any taller than the stock ones on my 3500 they are 305/70/16, my sig says 315 this is wrong they are 305.

I've said also before right now I haven't the time to build tunes for the quad, I have a towing tune I got off here, I tow maybe 11k all in with the truck and was using 3 or 4 out of 9 with a lot of what I thought was trans LU slip, it was bucking not trans, now on 9 out of 9 and motor wise it will eat what I tow all day every day with low EGT / coolant and load figures, It runs really good trans not so, I probably need to just stomp it and kill it then I will have to find a good trans builder and get it done

 

We are all different and want different things although I would say  your truck would be worth more than mine as mine won't be stock, excluding the fact yours is manual trans that is

[Tractorman]

1 hour ago, wil440 said:

John did you forget I'm in the UK ...... alignment shop >>> no such thing here, tracking (toe in/out) is all thats done

 

Wow! I had no idea!  Sorry for that suggestion.  When I increased the caster on my truck, I just cranked the adjustment to make the the lower control arm longer, almost to the maximum setting.  I just guessed.  I had to make a couple of minor adjustments to allow for the crown of the road.   When I had it like I wanted, I could let go of the steering wheel and the truck would track very slightly to the right over a long distance..  Of course, in the UK it would be to the left!  Then I had it checked at an alignment shop just to have a record (4.5° positive both sides).  It is unfortunate that you cannot do this. 

 

Then end result was good.  The truck steered much better going straight down the road as well as into and coming out of curves.  Coming out of curves, the steering wheel returned to center quickly on its own - very responsive.  For you, I am sure it will be worth the hassle.

 

1 hour ago, wil440 said:

they are 305/70/16, my sig says 315 this is wrong they are 305.

 

I know that you are not going to change your tire size, but here is the difference between the stock tire size vs the tire size that you are running.  The tire info from my door jamb on my truck shows 245/75R-16 for tire size.  I think your '99 truck is the same. 

 

- John

[wil440]

5 minutes ago, Tractorman said:

 

Wow! I had no idea!  Sorry for that suggestion.  When I increased the caster on my truck, I just cranked the adjustment to make the the lower control arm longer, almost to the maximum setting.  I just guessed.  I had to make a couple of minor adjustments to allow for the crown of the road.   When I had it like I wanted, I could let go of the steering wheel and the truck would track very slightly to the right over a long distance..  Of course, in the UK it would be to the left!  Then I had it checked at an alignment shop just to have a record (4.5° positive both sides).  It is unfortunate that you cannot do this. 

 

Then end result was good.  The truck steered much better going straight down the road as well as into and coming out of curves.  Coming out of curves, the steering wheel returned to center quickly on its own - very responsive.  For you, I am sure it will be worth the hassle.

 

 

I know that you are not going to change your tire size, but here is the difference between the stock tire size vs the tire size that you are running.  The tire info from my door jamb on my truck shows 245/75R-16 for tire size.  I think your '99 truck is the same. 

 

- John

John don't be sorry on the suggestion perfectly good point in the USA, this is just a snippet of what owners of these truck face certainly in the UK and as ever from yourself loads of useful information. I'm struggling to see the impact of taller tyres on caster (and I only know this word because of yourself IBM and hag .... thanks) forks rake is easier, like I said not checked here

I know my 3500 QCLB 5.9V8 4x4 drives different and much more like a modern vehicle with exactly the same steering, doesn't wander and doesn't sound like a Cat D8  although the settings on the quad are now better and it sounds pretty good, steering box is new on that..., I may swap it to see what the difference is... 3500 is parked for rotten door bottoms and I'm not paying the silly prices of panels to my door I'll make em when I get time.

I actually prefer my 3500 as a driver.... as a tow truck 2500 hands down I think,  not sure what I would think with a propane convo on the 3500, might get me a converted 30 to the gallon, I only bought my 2500 diesel as it looks right with the bigger tyres and easier to park here without getting fines, any tyres on parking bay white markings are a £60 fine, can't get inside the bay with a 3500 back wheel..... Last fine in my 3500 I told the parking idiot to make the bays bigger and refused to pay.... that cost me £100 eventually

 

45 minutes ago, Tractorman said:

Wow! I had no idea!  Sorry for that suggestion

When all this covid crap is over come take a look  so so much different to the USA

[Doubletrouble]

20 hours ago, wil440 said:

Last fine in my 3500 I told the parking idiot to make the bays bigger and refused to pay.... that cost me £100 eventually

 I've noticed in recent years that parking spaces here have seemed to shrink. I have a 3500 dually and if I am in the line I am within an inch on each side. Most times touching both sides.

 They want everyone to drive these little tiny toy cars now days. I refuse. I'll park out further and walk a bit before I drive an econo go-cart.

[wil440]

Do you guys have Smart cars over there, they are made I think by Merc which for the record I wouldn't touch with a pole but Smart cars I'm sure the way to get in is to be poured in through a hole in the roof, or  a Renault Twingo which is not much more than a tobogan, don't even sit side by side in this thing, just like a long bathtub with a tent on the top, this is battery, Smart uses a Suzuki motorcycle engine IIRC.

About 6 or 7 years ago I was in Waco Texas for a month working for Caterpillar doing transmission changes on Cat backhoes, there is a large Cat facility full of brand new machines, did 130 odd trans changes in a month, 6 of us all from the Cat factory here in the UK where they were built, staying in a large hotel on a shopping mall in Waco somewhere, not actually a huge amount of shops but the area for parking was huge and I mean huge, best thing was a bar on the parking area 5mins walk from the hotel  Perfick

[dripley]

Oh yeah, we have Smart Cars. First on I saw was in a parking lot with a vanity plate on it that read  "DEATH TRAP". I thought that was appropriate.

[wil440]

20 minutes ago, dripley said:

Oh yeah, we have Smart Cars. First on I saw was in a parking lot with a vanity plate on it that read  "DEATH TRAP". I thought that was appropriate.

plate should be ROLLER SKATE    I can't believe in the land of the free and V8's that Smart cars have even been allowed off the boat, should just toss em overboard with the used orange crates or just bolt wheels and a lawn mower engine into the orange crate and toss the smart  

[dripley]

16 minutes ago, wil440 said:

plate should be ROLLER SKATE    I can't believe in the land of the free and V8's that Smart cars have even been allowed off the boat, should just toss em overboard with the used orange crates or just bolt wheels and a lawn mower engine into the orange crate and toss the smart  

I dont even know if I would fit in one at 6'4". Might be interesting to try but I dont have a desire to ride in one. 

 

Bought the wife a Chevy Equinox not long ago and the first thing we looked at was a Buick Envoy. I always get in the front seat and adjust it to fit me ant then go to the rear to see what kind of room there is. I sat in the back seat and could not even get foot in the door. Instant fail for me. But at least it had a back seat.