Cetane do you use it ?

[01cummins4ever]

5% or less of bio is not required to be labeled as far as I know most diesel sold in the US has it, but at different blends It’s always best to know your fuel source 

 

Study’s using a HFRR (High Frequincy Riciporating Rig) show even a 2% bio blend is the most effective for lubrication, Their are some tables posted somewhere showing results of different brands of additives, but can’t find them. 2 stroke and some other popular additives used without bio are also in the top tier, the lower the number in a HFRR test the better, I forget what the Bosh vp44 recommendation is but thinking around 480.? on the HFRR  scale. Power service products score very bad, but they are more intended for an anti gel product and not a lubrication modifier, I will use it as an anti gel but that’s only in -15F or colder, but again it’s best to know your fuel source and what the winter blend is rated for, 
 

A 100 Gallons a day can be an average day for me in the long haul, I don’t know my fuel sources when traveling out of the area in the winter but keep plenty of the power service, white bottle, one bottle will treat 100 gallons for anti gelling, in the tool box and a few bottles of the red stuff. The cetane booster is just hype IMHO, good batteries and compression will have far better cold starting results than any cetane booster rated product, also fuel heaters are a god send I the winter time 

 

 

 

 

[Turbo Terry]

Very complicated.  So 2 stroke is a very good idea.  The cetane not so much.   What about 5th  gen new trucks 2020 and newer . Do they need additives or not.  Anti gel for winter certainly 

[Silverwolf2691]

2019 is the 5th (4.5 gen) gen start. Ram/Cummins allows power service per the manual, not sure if its specifically recommended.

 

We (shoreline CT) didn't have a cold, cold winter this past one, but I didn't run any additives, anti-gel or otherwise in my 19, didn't have a problem. Not to say others wont, just my experience.  

 

I'm finding that an amount of ignorance on things helps keep complications at bay. Its like the whole synthetic vs dino oil debate that still rages on to this day. Both sides have holes in the argument and both sides have strong support. Its your money, you do what you want. Keep things changed on time and you wont have issues. Just as long as the weight is right. But if you don't ask the question, you would never have to start second guessing yourself about what you were putting into your vehicle.

 

1 hour ago, 01cummins4ever said:

but again it’s best to know your fuel source and what the winter blend is rated for, 

 

How does one find this information? Used to be a gas station clerk, we don't know that info. It's not provided to us.       

Edited August 6, 2021 by Silverwolf2691

[dripley]

Anything 5% or less does not have to be labled anything over 5% has to be labeled. My truck loved the bio diesel. Though at the 20% level I loose a little mileage, 1 mpg or so. I ran some bio just labled as 5% bio mass diesel. I got 22.5 mpg on the interstate running 75 mph. Repeated 3 times from 2 different stations in Tennessee. Thats the only places I ever found it labled just bio mass. The bio diesel always got the same as #2 diesel at the 5% level. 

 The labeling should be improved just help you know what fuel you are running. Does not seem that will be happening anytime soon though. 

[LorenS]

As discussed before, there are two general ways to increase cetane rating, and one method reduces the BTU rating of the fuel while the other does not.
If to boost cetane they remove the energy-dense waxes, etc., at the refinery to increase cetane, then the BTUs/gallon are lowered.  This would be like #1 diesel.  Right, wrong, or indifferent, I think of this as taking the hard-to-light, energy dense wood out of the firewood pile and replacing it with easy to light but low-BTU balsa wood.

If chemical means are used to increase cetane, the waxes and their BTUs are still there.  8 ounces of cetane and lubrication booster in a 35 gallon tank is pretty insignificant fuel dilution (about 0.4%).  The 2-stroke obviously adds more BTUs than it 'takes away' by reducing diesel capacity by a quart - also insignificant.  I don't know if the chemicals acting like pouring diesel on a big Oak log to get it to burn easier, or if it acts like a wood chipper turning the waxy hydrocarbon chains into kindling - either way, I believe that's more the approach to how this style of "cetane boosting" works.

 

If you have worn out injectors or a timing advance box, increasing cetane may start ignition TOO early and cause bad side effects - essentially you're over advanced at that point.  If you have high-pop injectors and thus try to compensate with an Adrenaline, the same effect may be possible by boosting cetane with chemical treatment (not using #1 diesel).

 

Based on the the results presented on this website from guys with WAY more miles and years of experience than me, I was going to switch from using fuel treatment to using Wal-Mart 2-stroke, but when I did the economic analysis, it was about the same as Amsoil on a per-gallon-of-fuel basis.  If cost was no object, I don't know if Amsoil fuel treatment is better or worse than 2-stroke, but my guess is about the same.  Since most of my fill-ups are 25 gallons instead of 30-34 gallons, I use the Amsoil fuel treatments because I buy the bigger containers (which is also concentrated) and just refill my "single serve" bottles that I bought a few years ago.  I use 5-6 oz of concentrate when I fill up; in winter I err I on the high side with their All-In-One treatment especially if heading north is in my near future.

 

I don't know how many miles are on my VP, but I put the last 75k miles on it ranging from -20 in Minnesota to +100 around home and Oklahoma.  My fuel gets hot in summer, have seen 150 or 160 degrees (I'll have to search for my post last year to confirm).  So far, so good with no stuck timing pistons or gelled fuel.  The first couple of winters I used Power Diesel Services white bottle at the recommended rates (including in Minnesota and northern Iowa) with no problems, even when I had last filled up in Kansas City or even farther south.  The other three seasons I used the Gray bottle which contains cetane booster.

My junk-pile Kubota seems to start easier, smoke less, and run better since I put cetane booster in it last fill-up.  It has freshly rebuilt injectors (less than 15 hours), so that extra injector pop-pressure (retarding injection) may be why it likes the cetane to make the fuel hurry and light off.  Same fuel station and the weather around here hasn't changed during this experiment, but admittedly it's a pretty dinky sample size and duration!

[Turbo Terry]

So if I use 2 stroke to lube the pump what would be a good antigel.  Mopar man says snow go oil but I’m having trouble how 1 ounce per gallon can keep it from waxing and plugging the filter.  I think I understand pour point  but I’m still confused.  When I first had this truck new I used standyne like before  they removed the sulfur  fppf fuel treatment. But it has cetane as well I just need a pure anti gel what might that be

[01cummins4ever]

6 hours ago, Turbo Terry said:

Very complicated.  So 2 stroke is a very good idea.  The cetane not so much.   

@Turbo Terry it’s really not that complicated, when testing diesel fuel with lubricants with a HFRR machine just imagine a hard steel ball with a saw sal blade action running on the surface with an implied amount of pressure for a given amount of time. The depth of the scar left in the steel ball is measured in microns and that number is recorded for that product, hence the smaller the number the better the rating, untreated diesel from the refinery can have a scar of around 560 microns, with modifiers we like to get it a depth in the 400’s.

6 hours ago, Silverwolf2691 said:

 

 

 

 

How does one find this information? Used to be a gas station clerk, we don't know that info. It's not provided to us.       

The clerk probably don’t but the station manager should have a copy of the delivery from an invoice, you think they would share that infro, but I guess that’s up to the individual. The fuel truck driver would have a copy of the BOL too, If you happen to see one at your local fuel station, ask him he might tell you.

 

In my case the Mavericks I use are good about posting the winter fuel rating on the pumps.

 

I also l change my fuel filter every time I change the oil, usually a couple times a year if it needs it or not, It’s easier to stay up to date what’s going through the tank 

 

1 hour ago, Turbo Terry said:

So if I use 2 stroke to lube the pump what would be a good antigel.  

 

I have had good luck with power service  the stuff that comes in the white bottle, The red 911 should only be used in an emergency by pouring it in your gelled fuel filter along with clean diesel. The liquid cooled 2 stroke synthetic snow mobile oil is about 45.00 a gallon, I m not sure of the anti gel in that

 

You can always use the tried and true method of mixing #2 with #1. a 50/50 mix should get you through some extreme cold temps, If it’s that cold I just leave the Dodge at home, and myself if I can get away with it but in my line of work the worse the weather gets the more I have to be out their. It sucks we have to treat our tanks as a witch’s brew    but all in all 90% of the time I just fill up and go, unless we are in a real cold snap 

 

 

 

 

[Turbo Terry]

Some stations mix 50/50 others do not.  No source of #2 here in the winter. Antigel is almost a must

[Mopar1973Man]

#1 Diesel would be better than mix #2 diesel. #1 diesel is winter diesel that already has anti-gel more or less. The PPD (Pour Point Depressant) is added and the fuel is distilled with more cetane. Blended #2 is more or less starting with #2 summer diesel and blend in the #1 to give winter time bonus. But pure #1 diesel would be way better. 

 

Up here in Idaho we only have blended #2 winter diesel. It still can travel to -40*F without any problem. Only 2 cycle oil and no anti-gels or cetane booster.

[AH64ID]

I would not use 2 stroke in a 6.7 that hasn’t been deleted. 
 

I ran 2-stroke for a bit on my 05 and it didn’t like it. That motor also didn’t like Cetane boosters on stock tuning. 
 

As far as anti-gel I don’t run it as a general practice but I will run it for certain reasons. Early in the season when fuel isn’t treated yet and I expect cold weather (elk hunting usually), or when weather is colder than the area I bought the fuel in (Boise fuel isn’t treated the same as New Meadows fuel), or I’m unsure of the treatment level. It’s not common for fuel stations to get it wrong, but it does happen. 
 

2013+ Trucks have 2 fuel filters and 2 fuel heaters, this will really help. The first unheated filter is always the first to plug when fuel starts to gel. 
 

IMO the 2-stroke isn’t what helps @Mopar1973Manin the winter, it’s that he gets properly treated fuel. 
 

Try to avoid bio diesel of more than 5% in the winter. As it has been mentioned it’s very hard to treat for cold, and gels much easier. 

[Turbo Terry]

I think not using anti gel would be a mistake in Alaska.  Sometime first to middle part of September  the stations here will start selling winter fuel already here.  I ask why  so early they said we can’t have trucks equipment gelling up on our customers. 50/50 mix I’m sure to begin with. The reason I tried cetane in my 99 was to see if it would help with my dieing going into gear issues.  My truck really wants #2 for the btu value to keep the rpms up when the 89 per cent DTT  torque converter hits it then dies.  My  5 gallon red plastic jugs with #2 and antigel stored outside and added to a ratio of about 10 gallons of pump fuel has worked for many years now. It’s a pain but it does work  I also think 2 stroke oil is a good thing in these trucks as well . Almost all diesel fuel additives  have anti gel cetane improvers lubricity  additives etc.  I don’t really know if you can just buy straight anti gel. So when my 99 was broke down for 2 months  and I ordered a new truck I dumped all my jugs of #2 that I had left over in the spring. I was going to get new fuel #2 but have not expecting the new truck and selling the old before winter but since a 2022 might be here by Christmas or never I might have to drive the 99 all winter the red jugs come out today   Antigel goes in each jug or it will wax sitting outside in the shed and off I go to fill them with #2 before the supply is shut off for the summer   Life in Alaska 

[Turbo Terry]

Just got 7 — 5 gallon jugs of creamy good old #2   Antigel went in first.   35 gallons at a 5 gallon to 10 gallon pump  fuel gives me 105 gallons at  15 miles to the gallon idling warming up gives me 1500 miles of winter driving in town for the winter.  I keep my tank full of fuel until late fall November or so and when it starts  to die I go to my special blend and it sees me to April when the #2 shows up again   Been doing this for more than 20 winters now 

[AH64ID]

I think I'd rather run #1 than treated #2. 

[Turbo Terry]

And we have bio diesel here at all in Alaska.  Bio diesel is used cooking oil I’m told.  We do have low sulfur fuel.  2 stroke I think is a good for my truck as well

[AH64ID]

Bio Diesel and used cooking oil are not the same thing. 

 

You should have ULSD not LSD. Even marine fuel is now ULSD. 

[Turbo Terry]

Quote

 

My truck would /will die everytime you put it in drive or reverse on solid #1 I guarantee it

[AH64ID]

Just now, Turbo Terry said:

My truck would /will die everytime you put it in drive or reverse on solid #1 I guarantee it

 

Something else is going on with the truck and the #1 just makes the issue more visible, guaranteed. 

 

There is no shortage of people who run #1 without a single issue. 

[Turbo Terry]

2 stroke oil is now also becoming kind of hard to find    

I called big dodge more then 20 years ago. When my truck was still stock.  The guy I talked to said yes we are aware of this issue   But we only have a handful of trucks in Alaska  compared to all the rest. I ask what could be done.  He had no ideas    I then called the dealer in Fairbanks. They also knew about it.  My dealer either did not know or would not talk about it. In certain northern places there is no #2 only #1. Fairbanks Tesoro and Glennallen Tesoro have #2 for semis with heated tanks going to the north slope.  If you go to Fairbanks when it’s 40 below  and go to a station it will be #1 I guarantee you Anchorage 350 miles to the south is 50/50 fuel until it gets colder -20 then it’s mostly #1    

I know all this is very hard to believe. But I been there and done it. So more than 20 years ago when it started dying  I took the truck back to the dealer several times for reprogramming etc. nothing helped.    I was about to drive 220 miles each way to Glennallen and get some number 2 diesel but I knew a guy that had a 100 gallon tank of #2 in a heated shed that he only used in the summer.  He was kind  enough to give me 10 gallons #2  my truck was running in the garage with the door open  and I started to dump the first 5 gallons in.  Before I was done  the whole sound of the truck changed  the next 5 gallons went in truck never died until that blended tank was gone. My 1999 24 v needs the btu of #2 to have the rpms to put it in drive and reverse and not die.  I was going to put a tank by my house but instead bought 20 5 gallon jugs problem solved.  I need more #2 back then because I was driving to work etc more driving   I now this story is very hard to believe but there is not something else wrong with this truck. These trucks were meant to have mostly #2. that’s it 

 

We have a major Cummins dealer here.  Detroit and Cat  etc ships and fishing boats.  Here have many towns and villages no  roads to them no power lines.  Diesel fired generators to make electricity for the school and a very few houses.  Cummins here could not fix it  Dodge could not fix it.  #2 diesel in red jugs fixes it.  I should have lemoned lawed  it out but by the time I understood it was to late   Sad story but very true 

[Turbo Terry]

We have a major Cummins dealer here.  Detroit and Cat  etc ships and fishing boats.  Here have many towns and villages no  roads to them no power lines.  Diesel fired generators to make electricity for the school and a very few houses.  Cummins here could not fix it  Dodge could not fix it.  #2 diesel in red jugs fixes it.  I should have lemoned lawed  it out but by the time I understood it was to late   Sad story but very true 

[AH64ID]

3 minutes ago, Turbo Terry said:

 Here have many towns and villages no  roads to them no power lines.  Diesel fired generators to make electricity for the school and a very few houses.  

 

Yep, I lived in one of those towns for several summers years ago. 

 

 

It probably doesn't matter much with the new truck on the way, but have you tried new injectors? Or different pop pressure?