Angry & can't do it anymore, serious iQuad timing issues

[Me78569]

try this fueling curve to help get that turbo lit faster.

 

0: 90

1: 90

2: 92

3: 94

4: 96

5: 99

6: 103

7: 106

8: 110

9: 114

10: 118

11: 122

12: 126

13: 130

14: 134

15: 138

16: 142

17: 146

18: 150

18+:150

[LorenS]

I understand the Adrenaline doesn't do much, if anything, under 1,500 RPM (or thereabouts), but does it adjust CANbus fueling at lower engine speed? Just an ignorant question since we're on the topic.

[Mopar1973Man]

Actually its 1,200 RPM is the breaking point where the Quadzilla hands back off to the ECM. At that point the ECM is back in control so as long as the RPMs are above 1,200 RPMs then the Quadzilla is still handling both timing and fuel management.

[LorenS]

1 minute ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Actually its 1,200 RPM

Oh, that's great! Not sure why I thought it was 1,500.

[Mopar1973Man]

That was one of my hang up cruising 30 MPH through Council, ID every morning hit 30 MPH in 4th gear and it would buck horridly being it was right at the 1,200 realm and also if the 1,500 band was 14 or 15 degrees is would buck really bad. Now it very slight at 13 degrees. But still feel the 1,200 point where the timing retards (ECM control). This why I suggest 13 degrees for the manual transmission where on a Auto they don't di low like that so you can run 15 degree on the 1,500 band.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Mopar1973Man

[Me78569]

The way it works is from idle state aka tps = 0 to 1200 rpm there is a handoff happening that is more complex than a switch on or off.

 

 

how it works

If you apply the throttle beyond %2 then the quad takes over control if rpms are greater than 1000 .  from that point the quad is told to fuel, until either rpms fall below 600 or tps goes back to 0.   and the limit for the quad is turned back to 1000 rpm for the fueling take over.  

 

If speed is greater than 30 mph and rpms are greater than 1200 then the quadzilla is in control regardless of tps, I dont remember why this is the case, but it was required during testing

the issue with manual trucks having bucking at extremely low RPMS I believe is a function of the ecm sending high priority messages for anti stall functions when it thinks the engine is at rise of stalling.   

 

Remember that there are 1 forms of communication between the ecm and vp44, 1 is standard priority commands 2. high priority commands.  Tuners use method 2, but the ecm only uses #2 method sometimes to prevent what it see's as issues.      If the ecm thinks there is an issue, such as stalling it will send a high priority command which will conflict with the tuners fueling ressulting in odd behavior.  

 

Same is true for fueling beyond ~3750 rpm.  The ecm see's that as a runaway condition and effectively sends high priority commands of 0 for a fueling command then locks the outputs from the ecm on the j1939 bus if the vp does stop fueling.  This is why we had issues with the quad freezing when we tried to hold canbus fueling beyond 3800 rpm.  

[Mopar1973Man]

I'm still not a fan of a linear ramp up of full from defuel state right up to max fuel. This is not a efficient fuel ramp because you always will seem to be ramped up power mode which typically does end up adding more fuel constantly might be slightly but it is.  Best for economy purpose you need a defuel zone for building boost and controlling smoke. Then the realm where the truck normally cruises at highway speeds should be at 100% stock fuel for economy purpose. Then above that cruise zone you can ramp up linear to 150%. This way your more or less floating on the stock ECM fuel map but when power is needed then it ramps up. 

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I know this isn't to scale. But basically that  what the fuel table should be for economy purpose. Remember don't try to build a performance tune in a economy tune it WILL NOT work. Now on a performance tune yes you would want to ramp up as fast as possible. This why Quadzilla is a great tuner you can build as many tunes as possible to fit every thing you may do with your truck. 

[LorenS]

2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

The way it works is from idle state aka tps = 0 to 1200 rpm there is a handoff happening that is more complex than a switch on or off.

That whole post you made is fantastic for helping us mere mortals learn a little more about how these operate.

 

@Mopar1973Man I think it would be beneficial to have a folder somewhere on this site where we can cut and paste these kernels of knowledge that show up in random, otherwise barely related posts. Maybe it could start as a sticky thread where we members can copy and paste these tidbits, then at some point one of us can take them, clean them up, and make an article of sorts? I just don't know how to do all of this on a webpage.  I can dig around and find some posts I remember were helpful and copy them into a Word file, if that is helpful.

 

[Mopar1973Man]

Create an article from the tidbit. You can always edit it later and add on.

[Stanley]

Great stuff here! 

Yea PO said he pulled some with it, don't know class, but it is what it is at this point. So I didn't start working with the most street friendly stuff, now it's alot better from what I had, so on the bright side there's progress...

Don't hate me for this but right now it's just a daily driver, didn't expect 20mpg or anything crazy, just something better than 6x18 and DF pump churnin ponies... So basically Id like a decently fun daily driver, don't think I'll get any better than that out of 6x13's... I may randomly tow here and there, kinda rare, but things can change, so tow tune can come later. If could get 15mpg that would be a huge jump, and cruise 600* egt would be a nice. Any better than that--icing on the cake! 

 

I'll try this fuel curve now about to head home. 

 

I agree with @LorenS little tidbits like he mentioned would be great to keep on hand. 

[Me78569]

 so 6 x .013's flow a ton of fuel, more than a vp can.   so goals and a desired hp level would be good.   twins would by my suggestion for a towing 600 hp setup, however you 64 is not really geared to that.  

 

a play truck with 6 x .013's can still work, but that 64 is a 2k spooling turbo on a 4.10 manual truck.  it's not a 1400-1500 spooling turbo.

 

what speed do you want to cruise at?

[Great work!]

Maybe the Quadzilla should take over all RPM and be the idle governor instead of the ecu it would have to fudge some of the reply messages from VP to ECU to keep it happy.  IDK that could be pretty tricky.

[Stanley]

2 hours ago, Me78569 said:

 so 6 x .013's flow a ton of fuel, more than a vp can.   so goals and a desired hp level would be good.   twins would by my suggestion for a towing 600 hp setup, however you 64 is not really geared to that.  

 

a play truck with 6 x .013's can still work, but that 64 is a 2k spooling turbo on a 4.10 manual truck.  it's not a 1400-1500 spooling turbo.

 

what speed do you want to cruise at?

 

Yes I knew they where big, just thought it was a better option than 6x18 haha...

 

I guess I need to start figuring out/learning twins?!?!

 

Daily play truck? I can live with it!

 

2k is indeed the area where it hits.

However, I'm only hitting boost in the 30-40 psi range right now... not enough fuel yet??

Edit: I reference (only 30-40) just due to what I used to get with it. It could peg a 60 psi gauge...

 

I think 70 mph is a good number for hwy cruise. In my wife's car it's 75 for all the interstate driving lol. I currently have only been driving/testing @ 65mph for all this. I'd rather 75 but let's face its got 4.10's....

Edited April 8, 2022 by Stanley

[Me78569]

if you want to drive 75 then 3.55's are needed and mpg is not gonna be great.    the turbo is really a hit at 2k turbo so if that is not what you are after i would be talking to @dieselautopower about a better turbo that can be paired with a s475 down the road in a twin setup.  I would think a 62 sxe would be a night and day difference, I am not sure how well the 57 gxe's wastegate works and if you could do a 57 with a a s472 or something, that would spool like crazy.   but sizing turbos is not my arena.

 

how was it with the more aggressive fueling curve?      

[dieselautopower]

35" tires and 4.10 can be decent for faster highway speeds.  

 

62/68/12 would certainly spool faster.  It works well with an s475 with 96/1.15AR, or s475,83/1.25 or s472/87/1.10 (custom)

 

57mm GXE is a a better option for twins going for 650HP as it will spool faster.

 

Did you do any headwork or cam to improve flow?  Tunnel ram?  If you can improve spool up a little it would be nice.  A custom cut 12cm turbine housing would decrease spool time a little.  an sxe 64/68/14 would add more air and make spooling better as the wheel is significantly lighter.  

[Stanley]

On 4/8/2022 at 6:49 AM, Me78569 said:

how was it with the more aggressive fueling curve?      

It seemed fine to me, like I was saying the boost numbers seem low to me, smidge of smoke through 3rd and 4th, not clouding out the intersection though. 

I think the obvious hindrance is the turbo spool down low, cause it's laggy up untiiiiiiillllllllll 2,000 rpm lol

On 4/8/2022 at 8:26 AM, dieselautopower said:

Did you do any headwork or cam to improve flow?  Tunnel ram?

Engine supposedly has a Hamilton cam, can't 100% confirm but I assume it's there. Got a BD intake horn, and no grid heater going into the plenum

 

Yall got me really wanting to throw some money at 2 turbos right now... That's gonna be expensive!!

 

Anyone want a 64/71/14 ?🤣 (Wastegate works ust can't hook it up on mine) 

 

[LorenS]

1 hour ago, Stanley said:

wanting to throw some money at 2 turbos right now... That's gonna be expensive!!

The "Dave Ramsey" and "old grumpy dad" in me says to instead buy some 150s from DAP and source either a stock HX35 or that HE351W I shared before. Would HAVE to be way less money and you could use that until you have a pile of money for the 2-turbo setup. With that setup you could follow Mike's setup almost exactly. Sell your current turbo and keep the injectors.

 

I figure someone should throw out the stick-in-the-mud advice, can't believe it's me!

Edited April 9, 2022 by LorenS

[Mopar1973Man]

[jag]

On 3/29/2022 at 9:18 PM, Stanley said:

I was totally on the same track as you this morning, however this afternoon Im thinking otherwise. Isn't 70% the lowest canbus setting; Or the lowest usable percentage? 

Think again. 2001 HO, HRBDVP 44. 6X13 Infinite, 93 drilled out fuel tubes, stock lines though. & a S468 single. I dare anyone on this forum to think they could leave me on the line. Quite the opposite as all you would see is tailgate.

Here is my fueling curve. Try it.

[Silverwolf2691]

@jag, 13, 14, 15 psi are odd compared to normal thinking.. is there a reason for that?

 

is your timing still at 16, 18, 20, 22, 25 or something close to that with no push or pulls from cruise and what not?