High amp alternator

[Dieselfuture]

3 hours ago, skyhigh4by said:

I got a reading of .08 - .09 acv.

Too much, especially if accessories and grids were off. Diodes will fix most of it but good chance you'll need new armature and brushes, they also contribute to ac noise. 

[skyhigh4by]

1 hour ago, Dieselfuture said:

Too much, especially if accessories and grids were off. Diodes will fix most of it but good chance you'll need new armature and brushes, they also contribute to ac noise. 

Actually got .09 - .12 with a better ground point and that was with grid heater disconnected, hvac off, radio off, lights off, basically anything I could turn off was. 

 

I think im going to try to find a new Bosch unit the one in there now is denso and then I’ll go through all the grounds and battery cables cleaning everything up. 

 

Could this much ac leakage over a prolonged period be a cause of apps, vp44 codes, and dead pedal problems as well as other various electrical quirks. 

Edited January 19, 2018 by skyhigh4by

[outlaw7]

See that's why I'm working on this lil project cause that's what I'm thinking too. I noticed something yesterday when I peeledy ecm off the side of the block too. The only ground it has is the block, my pcm had a 12awg ground connected that jumpered to the firewall, again unimpressed so I'm gonna run a new ground that ties to an event bolt and link the pcm over to my alternator ground. Yep I put a 6awg ground from the alternator bracket to battery two  I think my truck is getting old enough that the grounds are getting old and intermittent so it's time to build a grounding system to tie it all together

[WiscoRedkneck]

2 hours ago, outlaw7 said:

See that's why I'm working on this lil project cause that's what I'm thinking too. I noticed something yesterday when I peeledy ecm off the side of the block too. The only ground it has is the block, my pcm had a 12awg ground connected that jumpered to the firewall, again unimpressed so I'm gonna run a new ground that ties to an event bolt and link the pcm over to my alternator ground. Yep I put a 6awg ground from the alternator bracket to battery two  I think my truck is getting old enough that the grounds are getting old and intermittent so it's time to build a grounding system to tie it all together

When I overhaul I changed my ground setups on everything I have a ground wire going from my alternator bracket to my passenger battery that cable is 1/0 the two engine grounds to battery are 2/0 as well as the chassis ground is also 2/0 the body to battery ground is 4 gauge both sides.

The one thing you have to remember to is the main ground that connects your batteries to the chassis is behind the front bumper in front of the driver's tire on the outside of the frame rail, that connection must be clean and non corroded and always covered with some sort of Dielectric grease oil WD-40 something to prevent corrosion and to keep a good ground to the chassis when I found out on my truck during the overhaul I shook my head and said really Dodge you couldn't have come up with a better location......

[JAG1]

Michael Nelson, site owner always professes to not add any grounds that help mask the underlying problem. Again, not add band aids that will help mask making a good diagnosis of the alternator. Of course I agree.

 

On the other hand, I'm hearing of so many with unacceptable levels of the damaging A/C ripple, almost common, its tough not to wonder.

 

Remember too that higher amp alternators carry added High frequency ripple.

Edited January 19, 2018 by JAG1

[WiscoRedkneck]

The only ground that was technically added was the one from the battery to the alternator mount, that was added per Nations installation instructions.  The charge line goes back into a harness so I added a charge line into a fusible link(after discussion in a different thread the fuse was added) directly to the positive of the passenger battery that was also a Nation's installation requirement.

I went with the bigger alternator and all new parts thinking that all was going to be good now I just have to go measure the darn thing to make sure that I'm not causing more harm than good   

I will update shortly

Ok so idle headlights radio HVAC off

VAC measured from charging stud passenger negative bounced from .001-.002

VAC headlights on HVAC on high and radio on volume set around normal cruising level

.005-.1 

I'm not an electrical genius but that seems fairly good but based on what is said about increased ripple on high output alternators I was almost expecting to see higher numbers.

BTW this is Nations 180 amp unit

Edited January 19, 2018 by WiscoRedkneck

[dripley]

I was thinking of going the nation's route myself until reading all of this. It had me .

[skyhigh4by]

1 minute ago, dripley said:

I was thinking of going the nation's route myself until reading all of this. It had me .

I’m in the same boat as you on that I think. Now I wonder if just finding a Bosch replacement, replace and/or clean all the grounds and reducing electrical load at idle/install high idle. 

[015point9]

I'm looking forward to see what the "fix" is, if any.

Large amount of questions here are VP44 or elect.  Get those two things worked out and I can see million miles

[Mopar1973Man]

I did some serious thinking on this and we keep going back to how to filter the AC noise. We are not resolving the alternator failure issue. I'm starting to wonder if the age of the grid heater it starts to lose impedance and becomes more like a short as age comes on and the current load rises more with age. Because I look back and my truck ran for over 10 years without an alternator issue now I've blown 6 alternators in little over 2 years. My last alternator I installed I unhooked my grid heaters and see if the problem returns at all. The simple fact is excessive electrical loads is causing the diodes to overheat and fail. But for whatever reason we keep swinging back around to attempting to filter to AC noise. This is not a solution. Need to figure out what is causing the alternators to fail. I'm really starting to wonder if the grid heaters wear out and draw higher current as they age.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[skyhigh4by]

So there must be a way to monitor the draw from an original oem grid heater and then compare to a fresh one..? Obviously deterioration of connections and grounds throughout the entire system only amplified the problem

[outlaw7]

Buy a good DC ammeter or a cheap DC amp gauge though the ones I've seen only go-to 60amps hook it in line on your old toaster just one cycle it then do the same for the other then go online and find the original oem draw spec for a new toaster. I think alot of what we're seeing with alternators both higher ripple and failure is due to the fact that the parts that are available just aren't near as good as what they used to be guys. Take the new silver solder standard what else has been changed in the last 20 years ten even five. With manufacturing of electronic parts primarily coming from China now not even Korea or Thailand it's little wonder we have problems 

And don't forget that old wiring your drawing through

Hey Mopar I tried calling last night but no answer

[Mopar1973Man]

Grid heater...

 

1 element is 95 Amps

2 elements is 190 Amps

 

So you better have a big meter or magnetic flux amp meter. 

6 minutes ago, outlaw7 said:

Hey Mopar I tried calling last night but no answer

 

Most likely buried by another call if it just rings most likely what happen. Cell phone number doesn't work at home but my Cell Wifi number does. 

[JAG1]

On my first gen I burnt all Fuseable links when starting on a cold morning. The grid heaters were connected and the truck had many miles,many years on it.

 

I replaced the fuseable links, but before going back to work, I suspected the grid heater caused the problem so I disconnected them.

 

The thing that Mike brings to my attention is the fact that the fuse links never melted again after disconnecting the grids.

Edited January 20, 2018 by JAG1

[Mopar1973Man]

Just now, JAG1 said:

The thing that Mike brings to my attention is the fact that the fuse links never melted again after that.

 

@JAG1 brings the fact it very possible the grid heater does wear out and create the alternator issues. 

[skyhigh4by]

1 minute ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Grid heater...

 

1 element is 95 Amps

2 elements is 190 Amps

 

 

Goes to show how much I know about this system I wasn’t even aware there were 2 grids. 

 

Would running only 1 grid instead of both in near or just below freezing temps be sufficient enough to get a easier/cleaner startup? Is disconnecting only 1 of the grids even possible? A 90A draw vs a 190A draw seems like it would make a big difference 

[Mopar1973Man]

42 minutes ago, skyhigh4by said:

Goes to show how much I know about this system I wasn’t even aware there were 2 grids.

 

Here you go an article on DodgeRam.Org yeah I know its for the 12V but the system is just the same.

http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/troubleshooting/Maniford_htr.htm

 

Intake Temp	Heater Cycle time	Heat after Engine is Running
Above 59°F, 15°C	None	No
15°F to 59°F -10°C to 15°C	10 Seconds	Yes
0°F to 15°F -18°C to -10°C	15 Seconds	Yes
Below 0°F, -18°C	30 Seconds	Yes

 

 

[JAG1]

The article that I provided a link to up several posts back, says' by its very nature a higher amp alternator will produce a higher amount of AC ripple', but fails to mention a very important point made by Michael Nelson who educated me on the phone today....that a higher amp alternator does not generate the amount of heat, causing the diodes to burn or melt, because it has a greater number of diodes not having to work as hard. I remember reading years ago that its always best to get an alternator with twice the amount of amps required for the system loads.

[Dieselfuture]

I also think better batteries  (bigger in size and cranking amps) would also help. They may absorb the load better from grids and not overload the alternator. Just a thought. 

[WiscoRedkneck]

@Dieselfuture if l understand my old man correct ( the engineer) you would tend to be correct as the batteries act almost as filters as ac voltage gets shunted to ground through the battery, now even if that's correct it still means there's a strong chance of AC noise so no issue is resolved.  Just hidden maybe as Mike would say, but then again I could just be totally wrong and misunderstanding the engineer