High amp alternator

[W-T]

On 2/6/2018 at 1:21 AM, notlimah said:

@W-T So that alternator drops right into the factory spot, and doesn’t need a different pulley or anything? If so, mighty impressive.

@notlimah...yes DC Power Engineering produces this to maintain factory aspects of mounting the alternator and using the factory serpentine belt.

 

Again, this alternator is superior in design to all other manufactured devices. My purpose is:

 

1) Eliminate the TC lock and unlock issue ( due to out of spec AC component from the factory Denso). The small AC ripple from all alternators is "smoothed" by the battery(s) however; time takes the toll on the grounding integrity of the entire system.

 

2) Provide additional current on demand when needed. ( I operate some high demand current devices)

 

@outlaw7 The method of providing additional "filtering" is not without merit however; the parallel batteries have great capacitance to dampen slow or moderate AC excursions due to poor DC rectification issues. Large wet cell batteries do an excellent job of "filtering" but, it occasionally is not enough. The primary inspection must begin at the generating source and then follow the path of filtering (smoothing) to achieve the results of "clean DC".

 

In working with "audio" I'm sure you're well versed with "cross over networks" where the audio content is directed to specific speakers. The cross-over is "frequency" specific for certain segments of the desired audio spectrum. In building the cross over network you choose a component structure that "passes" bass but, is not electrically sympathetic or conducive to pass the "audio energy" from a high frequency treble instrument. Following this example in your knowledge base of audio lends well to this subject matter. 

 

The AC component that cause the TC lock and unlock syndrome is a "higher frequency" excursion. Where the activation of the headlight switch to provide current flow is a "slow" human function of activating the switch. This one time action is causing current to flow but, the "initial turn on" IS, the fractional moment when the system is taxed for only a single momentary event. No problem...that small "spike" was absorbed by the eminence capacity of our large storage batteries....and if all is well the headlights are illuminating the road before us.

 

Now...knowing the clock-speed from the PCU...that is controlling the the torque converter... is a "pulse-width-modulated" DC square-wave. This wave form is turning on and off at a very fast speed compared to a human turning on a light switch. How fast is it...?...I don't know but, let us say it's perhaps 120 KHz (on and off 120,000 times a second) this of course,is way faster than a human could turn on and off a headlight switch.

 

Now...audio is relatively slow compared to the control pulses emanating from within the computer control of our trucks and when you select capacitors for the "low frequency" path of the cross over network you would choose components that have the capacitive reactance or to  "favor" the lower ( or bass ) signals. The batteries in our trucks act as very "large capacitors" ...I do not want to say "Farads" but, this could be used to correlate a comparison. The "problem" is the interfering AC ripple that is combing with the PCU's primary "clock" and causing the torque converter to lock and unlock is an unwanted high frequency signal. To dampen or eliminate this "interfering" signal much smaller capacitence values would be the key. Adding "Farads" will not help this situation...adding micro-farads may very well help. The parallel batteries ARE our "low frequency" filters or perhaps a better unscientific term "big slow "reactive" garbage cans".

 

@Mopar1973Manhas reiterated this many times...the truck was fine for so many years... what happened? His research took us all, to the "source" of this unwanted noise. Yes, the alternator is the generating source and the diodes aging, tough environment to endure, good grounds that have deteriorated over time, extreme current demands (grids) at intermittent moments. All of these contribute to a small error...the small AC ripple component is really no big deal...now, let's put a large #6 wire on the alternator's output B+ post...for giggles...let's make this wire 5 feet long and direct this "antenna" into plastic conduit containing other small "signal" sensor wires...direct the physical path of this #6 B+ charge wire, all the way across the front of the engine compartment and terminate this "antenna" into the Master Power Distribution Center with NO by-passing or attention to "possible" extraneous and unwanted noise (ripple) that might occur at some point in time? Bottom line by Mike Nelson...excessive AC ripple is the problem, period !

 

While we are at it (commencing in a parade of electronic buffoonery) let us take four rather key ground wires (all within this "front engine conduit") splice these four and connect them to a black/tan stripe #8 and run this back across the front of the engine compartment stopping to couple and uncouple THREE times in very nice connectors only to finally terminate at the PCU. All standards for "DC Ground"...you shall run the lead as short as possible and terminate with integrity. 

 

Note...the term "antenna" I am using this because a solid perfect DC line does not "radiate" a signal...an AC wave-form imposed onto a piece of wire does act as an antenna and will impose this signal onto and into any surrounding conductive structures. This AC wave-form ( ripple) has a fundamental frequency (3 phase rectification) with a spinning revolution of 700 RPM...1400 RPM or 2000 RPM....??? The frequency varies with condition....this frequency is high in nature...the PCU's clock (oscillator) is high in nature...it is the imposed mathematical equation of two fundamental frequencies "mixing" together as a product. The PCU can not differentiate the correct signal once an interfering extraneous source enters the equation.  You and I experience a transmission with bad manors.

 

Again, grounding with "integrity" with as "short" leads as possible and DO NOT CREATE GROUND LOOPS. You must maintain a single central primary ground source that all grounds will reference to.

 

If your generator has the potential to produce high current (anything over 90 Amps) the stakes are now elevated to arc-welder status and your disciplines must be keen. 

 

These CTD's were produced reasonably and for the most part serve well with competent maintenance. The engineers who planned this out are exceptional individuals... from a standpoint of "what if" we have a little "ripple" on our B+ line...what would happen? They all confirmed that most likely there would be NO issue. These are civilian motor vehicles...we need not worry about subtle errors...they will correct themselves. 

 

Viewing the outright grievous errors in basic "DC 101" theory...I give these men a D- as for all else...I love this truck. After 18 years of service it is excellent however; I'm going to correct these small errors and with the help of the members on this web site, I believe things will only get better. 

 

Sorry...I've seen many questions semi directed my way and I'm trying to catch up...my apologies...I'll continue to address this as time goes forward.

 

As I close out for now...build your Power Supply with the integrity that you expect from the circuits that demand current. A poorly designed power supply will plague all else that you prize. A well built power supply provides years and years of trouble free service....if it is built marginally than all else is marginalized.     

[Dieselfuture]

2 hours ago, W-T said:

Again, grounding with "integrity" with as "short" leads as possible and DO NOT CREATE GROUND LOOPS. You must maintain a single central primary ground source that all grounds will reference to.

I know that Mike advised against this but I added grounds to my truck about 4 years ago before I knew all this. One from passenger side negative to body, one from driver side to frame and one from bottom mounting bolt of alternator to passenger side negative. Is this what you describe as loops and should be avoided. I see no side effects at this time but that doesn't mean it's not there.

[Mopar1973Man]

@W-T You still missing what I'm saying. 

 

Like right now I've got a good alternator very AC low noise. It will remain that way as long as the grid heaters are not hooked up. So all the noise filtering is a non-issue being there is none at this point. My problem is finding what causes the alternator to overheat the diodes and create the excessive AC noise. The only thing I can see is the grid heaters drawing more than they did when the truck was new. Like I said grid heater are unhooked no issues at all. But I know as soon as I hook them up again now I take the chances of kill the diodes again and creating the AC noise issues. 

 

@Dieselfuture Both of my truck are completely factory wiring and no extra grounds or anything added working just fine. Just without the extra ground, it notifies me sooner of the problem before the AC noise level gets excessive like guys with all the added grounds get the warning too late and the ECM gets cooked.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[W-T]

@Dieselfuture No...this is NOT a ground loop. You have done the correct procedure...this is known as "bonding" and is standard Military procedure for "hardening the electronic platform". Any dissimilarity in the intrinsic DC resistance between body, body panels, frame and hood should be eliminated by "bonding" with sufficiently gauged wire or strap. This silences all noise from an electrical standpoint and creates an electrical platform with uniformity. All Military platforms are bonded to extreme levels of efficiency. My compliments to your disciplines of electrical integrity !    

[Dieselfuture]

I see your point @Mopar1973Man I do check AC noise kind of regularly, I guess my question is, will it do any damage to any electrical components by having more grounds, or the only risk is not knowing about AC noise sooner

[Mopar1973Man]

No. But it gives more paths to go. So when the alternator fails a negative side diode and creates a negative hole in the sinewave now it will travel out across the multiple ground straps. Typically in stock form, the warning sign is pretty obvious and noticeable. When people add extra grounds and modify wiring like moving the ground lead away from the alternator now the warning comes much later when AC noise level is critical and the ECM takes the hit. Typically the ECM fails before the owner even knows what happened because of all the wiring modifications. This why I do not suggest the extra grounds, noise filter, tinfoil, etc.  it does mask the problem longer and now you get less warning about the actual problem and damage come sooner. 

 

Remember actually the power flows from the grounds (source of electrons) to the positive side (to where there is lack of electrons - like a vacuum). 

 

Like in every case my alternator failed it was an obvious surge in the cruise control very unsteady. When it got worse it would start to affect the throttle when you manually controlled it would surge beyond what was commanded. Never lost a single ECM or PCM. I've lost my ABS module and had it rebuilt by Module Masters. Actually, come to find out the ABS failed because of a bad tone ring but the was damage done by fighting the system with a bad tone ring.

 

This is why I want to solve the alternator failure issue and not worry about modifying the truck being it worked for over 10 years without a single issue without any wiring modifications. Now, what do I have to fix to get back to that realm? Just like my 1996 Dodge still stock and no modification done to it still working just fine 22 years later. Same power cable ran with all the other stuff to PDC. Doesn't change. 

 

I know someone made a comment about the diodes and the source. I can tell you a Denso is manufactured in Japan. The diodes are also manufactured in Japan. Even the diodes I sell in the M73M store are manufactured in Japan. That is not going to go away.  NJo matter where you go or who remanufactures a stock alternator its going to end up with Japanese diodes. From all my research sourcing out diodes for Denso alternators all come from overseas nothing is made in the USA. 

 

I've talked to several alternator shops and rebuilders and all say the same thing there is nothing wrong with the diodes it has to do with electrical loads that are causing the diodes to overheat. The only huge electrical load on my truck that is "live" during the time the alternator is charging is the grid heaters. Starter doesn't count because during cranking the alternator isn't energized nor is it charging till the tach signal comes up to idle speed.

 

So back around the vicious circle. Back to the diodes overheating. 

[JAG1]

Just now, Mopar1973Man said:

 

So back around the vicious circle. Back to the diodes overheating. 

Probably means that I'm just big big trouble maker around here

[dave110]

One thing that has always baffled me. My Chrysler 300M with 3.5L engine, 1 battery and modest electrical load gets a 130A alternator. My 99 Dodge Cummins with 5.9L engine, 2 batteries to charge, and nearly 200A of grid heater load alone gets a 136A alternator  . Why it worked from new and now it doesn't is something I would like to know as well, but our stock alternators do seem quite a bit weak for the work they need to do. Maybe when everything was new it was just so enough amperage output to work OK, but now that things, whatever those things may be got aged and weaker it's just not enough and the poor alt. has to work too hard. In the AC world everything is sized 20% larger by NEC code to allow a little cushion. But here we're sized smaller for some reason. Cost? I mean if you wanted to buy a generator for your house and figured you have an 7800W load you would not buy an 8000W generator right? Common sense would say go with a 10,000W so it don't have to work at full capacity. I know the grids are a momentary load, but that moment gets pretty long when it's cold. So back to the OP's question. Wouldn't a larger amp. alternator be the way to go?

[W-T]

Additional grounding of any mobile, nautical or aircraft is a standard. Most civilian vehicles are produced with bare minimum efforts (budget) but, usually just enough to get by. As time advances all structures that have mobility will develop a loss of electrical continuity especially if it was produced for civilian use. It's difficult to get near or approach a jet black Chevy Suburban with CIA employees commanding the vehicle but, if you could....a close inspection would reveal exceptional electronic communication and data platforms within. A closer examination would reveal exceptional platform preparation done by real electronic black-op technicians who know how to prepare for extreme compromise conditions and having a vehicular failure electronically does not happen. DC continuity of all vehicles does not make specification with only minimal design. Bonding an entire vehicle takes time and effort. ($)

 

The standard common vehicles seen on the road, driven by the average person....goes to work, goes to the store, goes to school and comes home. The vehicle is just the everyday "Joe" device. Now let's put a 130 Amp alternator into this and all electronic aspects become more important. As @JAG1wrote "quoting"  Ohms Law...14 volts X 190 Amps = 2660 Watts of power....this amount of power being dissipated is EXCEPTIONAL ! Yes...there are little foo-foo cars with 100 Amp alternators and ZO-6 Corvettes are very cool but, they do not sink 190 Amps at a single meal. The grids of the Cummins platform require above average DC supplies. The starter in the Corvettes  and the Prius do require considerable current to start the engines. Once running, it's pretty easy....Now a Cummins 5.9 is a bit different, it requires 700 Amps just to run the starter on a cold day. The grids, depending on temperature, have a cycle rate.... Mike...I know you have a better experience with this than I do because of the temperatures where you reside.

 

The time it takes for an old 1960's something with a 55 Amp alternator to develop ground issues, due to current-flow aggravating electrolysis degradation at "contact points" is not even in the same ball park with 130 Amp generators and moments during a cold winter where grid heaters sinking 190 Amps is a reality! These CTD's are real diesel "flame throwers" when it comes to WATTS going on. (I'm trying to be clever)

 

If someone took some needle-nose pliers and precisely inserted the tool into a 120 volt wall socket in the kitchen...I think that would get everyone's attention. Pretty dumb thing to do...yes?

 

Now...this event would only be exciting for a fraction of a second and the circuit-breaker in the house breaker panel will open. Now...this is not something anyone does with a sound mind....yes? OK...we are dealing with Bart Simpson...this little unruly hooligan does it AGAIN ! Now...I think it is time for your guest to leave the house and go home....yes?

 

Now...let us do the math... OHMS LAW front and center:

 

120 volts x 20 Amps (circuit breaker) = 2400 watts !

 

So...it's "hair raising" when Bart Simpson sticks a needle nose pliers into the wall out-let in the kitchen....

 

But....it's NO BIG DEAL when our vehicles sink 190 Amps at 14 volts....let me see which event is transferring more electrons....Holly BajeeBers....the CTD wins !  @2600 WATTS

 

So....I would encourage all interested enthusiasts to examine the standards of Power...the CTD's are very authoritative platforms....it is our "weapon of choice"...they are not for the average "Joe" and require some added diligence on our behalf.

 

Needle nose pliers....test with a VOM...looks like a dead-short to me....my VOM only goes down to .2 Ohms and a dead-short is less than that....yes?

 

VOM at grid terminals on any CTD ....WOW looks like a dead short...but let's do the math.

 

OK lets's say 14 volts (we know that's close) and we know the total current demand is 190 Amps....yes?

 

OHMS LAW to the rescue : R= Voltage/Current....R= Voltage (divided by) Current

14 volts / 190 Amps = 0.0736842 Ohms 

 

I think that is very close to a dead short...it is below what your VOM can read....yes? You need a Wheatstone Bridge to read small amounts of resistance. But, if we have two values, we can do the math for the unknown. Electronics 101

 

So....on a cold day....I think I'm going to go stick a needle-nose pliers into the socket...and it's so fun I think I'll do it more than once...in fact I'm going to do this every winter, 6 days a week for 14 years...oh don't worry my 130 amp alternator will handle this along with my storage batteries.

 

By the way....my wife says Bart can't come over anymore...he is not allowed. She thinks he's going to burn our house down.

 

 

Tongue in cheek...presentation, with great respect to all.

 

Cheers,

  

[Mopar1973Man]

13 minutes ago, W-T said:

OHMS LAW to the rescue : R= Voltage/Current....R= Voltage (divided by) Current

14 volts / 190 Amps = 0.0736842 Ohms 

 

Now lets say that the load is now increased to 220 Amps. So 14 volts / 220 Amps DC (40 amp increase!) now has a ohms value of 0.0636 Ohms very small change but its possible that this small change is the cause of the increase loads on the alternator and creating more heat on the diodes? 

 

I've seen several trucks where the grid heaters shorted out and things get ugly fast. 

 

Here is something to ponder...

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[dave110]

OK, I'll be the one. What are we pondering there? A pegged gauge and what else. And that's not your truck or it wouldn't have Interstate battery and one of those messy red felt thingys under the post .

[dripley]

1 hour ago, JAG1 said:

Probably means that I'm just big big trouble maker around here

You always have been. Why do we tolerate you.

 

I have  been reading all of this and trying to soak it in. A little hard for my electrically uneducated arse to do. I am on the other end of the stick since I lost my ECM within 7 years. Went out in 08 with only 217k on the clock. No one I spoke to then had a clue of what my problem was. This is how I found my way here. By then I had to pull the trigger and get a rebuilt ECM to fix my problem on my own. Bad experience with the rebuilders but I did end up with a new one from Cummins and not a reman. But now I have 215k on that one and hope I dont have to find another.  So I will keep reading  and learning so hopefully mine will not fail again. Currently my grids have been disconnected for the past 2.5 years.

[JAG1]

Grid heaters alternator       

[Dieselfuture]

 I love this thread 

[Mopar1973Man]

2 hours ago, dave110 said:

OK, I'll be the one. What are we pondering there? A pegged gauge and what else. And that's not your truck or it wouldn't have Interstate battery and one of those messy red felt thingys under the post .

 

Your right, but someone's truck having shorting issues with the grid heaters without popping the fusible links. Drawing 400 Amps... That is way more than 190 Amps and not burning the fusible links that is scary...

[dave110]

Oh Wow! I got it now. That is scary! I'd think anything shy of a 1/0 would turn into a fusible link sooner than later at that amperage . What are they supposed to be rated at?

[Mopar1973Man]

5 minutes ago, dave110 said:

Oh Wow! I got it now. That is scary! I'd think anything shy of a 1/0 would turn into a fusible link sooner than later at that amperage . What are they supposed to be rated at?

 

By George I think he's got it. 

 

That's what I wondering is happening is the grid heater pulling more amperage during it's on periods causing the alternator diodes to overheat and cause the diode failure. Which in turn creates the AC noise issues of the infamous torque converter lock and unlock or like in my case the wild cruise control.

 

Like in this picture measuring 400 amp load and still heating those grids up. That just crazy high loads. But it would be the death of diodes very quickly. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Mopar1973Man

[dave110]

A bit of expense would be involved in this 'test', but how about replacing grids and relays with new and see if the problem goes away?Really isn't much else to go bad in the system other than the heater ground wire. What about that connection? Can't say I've paid much attention to that one.

 A quick E-Bay search shows a new setup can be had for around $200. It's easy for me to spend your money though.

[Mopar1973Man]

I wish I had the tools to just measure the current load on the grid heaters and see how much mine are drawing then at least know what is going on. Right now I'm on a tight budget with whats going on so tools like this just are not going to happen for me. Replacement without knowing is an expensive gamble too.

[JAG1]

2 hours ago, dripley said:

You always have been. Why do we tolerate you.

 

 

 

ME DRIPLEY