Head gasket replacement

[dave110]

7 minutes ago, JAG1 said:

I'm not sure about a lot of things as I get older, but it seems a stainless bristle tooth type brush could get in there and clean the threads if you spin it you will feel the threads pulling it down. Use the vac when lifting or turning the brush back out on its threads.

I like that. Could even put the brush in a drill and slowly spin it and work it in and out.

[trreed]

I would use brass instead of stainless.

[Blueox01]

11 hours ago, AH64ID said:

 

 

But that’s the thing, you cannot tell they are all equal with that method. 

 

The method does work, and has for many years, but that does not mean they are all equal. 

 

It’s good enough for most users/uses, and that’s the end point. 

 

Still can't understand your logic, You torque aluminum wheels then 50 miles later loosen and re-torque, or do you go back over the lugs at the same torque?

[AH64ID]

14 minutes ago, Blueox01 said:

Still can't understand your logic, You torque aluminum wheels then 50 miles later loosen and re-torque, or do you go back over the lugs at the same torque?

 

Two different things, torque check and re-torque. I think that's what has you confused. There are applications for both methods. I like to re-torque HG bolts/studs on installation. It ensures the HG is evenly seated. Some applications are just find with a torque check, like the 2nd go round on installing lug nuts. 

 

Torque check is just hitting them with the same torque to make sure they haven't loosen too much, but they can have loosened some... but you would never know with a torque check. 

 

Re-torque, is breaking torque and reapplying it.

 

If there is no movement of the torque wrench when it clicks then you are torque checking and not re-torquing.

 

Aluminum wheels are a funny example because they always break in a little and  you get movement, so you end up doing a re-torque on a torque check. But on new wheels if they don't move on their own, rare, I will break torque and re-torque... they nearly always go tighter for the same torque. 

Edited April 3, 2019 by AH64ID

[Blueox01]

30 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

 

Two different things, torque check and re-torque. I think that's what has you confused. There are applications for both methods. I like to re-torque HG bolts/studs on installation. It ensures the HG is evenly seated. Some applications are just find with a torque check, like the 2nd go round on installing lug nuts. 

 

Torque check is just hitting them with the same torque to make sure they haven't loosen too much, but they can have loosened some... but you would never know with a torque check. 

 

Re-torque, is breaking torque and reapplying it.

 

If there is no movement of the torque wrench when it clicks then you are torque checking and not re-torquing.

 

Aluminum wheels are a funny example because they always break in a little and  you get movement, so you end up doing a re-torque on a torque check. But on new wheels if they don't move on their own, rare, I will break torque and re-torque... they nearly always go tighter for the same torque. 

"Aluminum wheels are a funny example because they always break in a little" kinda like a gasket being compressed?

[Mad Bomber]

15 hours ago, Blueox01 said:

If the threads are clean, the tap should also chase down the threads, right? I did it on my block because it sat for so long.

Someone in our NWBOMBER.COM made me a long bottom tap to go to the bottom of the hole for the head bolts. If you want to barrow it let me know.

Never force it and with a tap it's a turn or two then back out some then for ward one or two.

[AH64ID]

1 hour ago, Blueox01 said:

"Aluminum wheels are a funny example because they always break in a little" kinda like a gasket being compressed?

 

Exactly, and why there is a re-torque involved... not a torque check. 

 

Stock rebuilds can go exactly by the book, which has evolved to include a re-torque and then a torque check. 

 

More power than stock, or more torque than stock needs a re-torque on top of the torque check. 

Edited April 3, 2019 by AH64ID

[Blueox01]

45 minutes ago, AH64ID said:

 

Exactly, and why there is a re-torque involved... not a torque check. 

 

Stock rebuilds can go exactly by the book, which has evolved to include a re-torque and then a torque check. 

 

More power than stock, or more torque than stock needs a re-torque on top of the torque check. 

857K on Truck, 450k on first 53 block, 400k on 2nd block maybe I need to understand what I've done wrong.  You might explain it to me. I did by my own admission did not replace the injectors that caused a burn hole in #6 cyl, Never had a head gasket leak. Engine not really a hot rod but with the RV275,ECM programed, and Edge EZ I think I'm above 350HP, I know I've got enough power to trash 3 NV5600 trans pulling weight, NEVER have I had a leak from any thing I sealed. I'm now on my 3rd VP44 only because the 2nd one sat for 8yrs and was gummed up.   

[Tractorman]

• 15 hours ago, dripley said:

The torque procedure in the FSM shows the bolt sequence and torque values. The 3rd step says to double check the 77 ft pounds done in step 2. The way I understand that is I need to break the bolts and re torque to the 77 ft pounds and then one more quarter turn. Do I need to remove that blot re lube and reinstall or just break loose a retorque?

 

Back to @dripley's first post regarding the head bolt torque procedure.  I am sure he wants to know the correct procedure - I would, too.  Although service manuals are a great resource for making a quality repair, sometimes clarity is lacking in instruction, or sometimes words or phrases are used that have different meanings for different people. 

 

When I am in doubt, I like to approach things from a fundamental point of view - in this case, the point of view of a fastener.

 

The purpose for applying a specified torque value to a fastener is to make sure the fastener maintains its designed clamping force for a long time during normal operations when vibrations and thermal expansions / contractions are occurring. 

 

A fastener can be brought to 77 ft/lbs of torque in a dynamic state.  If a person wanted to increase this torque to 82 ft/lbs of torque from a static state, then the person may find that the fastener does not move when 82 ft/lbs of torque is applied.  This is the result of static friction. If the fastener does not move with 82 ft/lbs of torque applied, it is still holding a clamping force of 77 ft/lbs .  It is kind of like trying to slide a heavy box on a smooth floor.  It takes more force to get it moving than to keep it moving - static vs. dynamic.

 

The following example is hypothetical and I make certain assumptions for clarity:

 

In the case of installing a head, the fastener is to be clean and lightly oiled to ensure a uniform clamping force for each of the fasteners when tightening the fastener to a specified torque.

 

  *  First, all fasteners are brought to 77 ft/lbs of torque using the proper torque sequence.  At this point, the first fasteners that were torqued will have lost some of their clamping force.  These fasteners will not be "loose", but for sure, their clamping force will have been reduced somewhat at this point.

 

Procedure A:  If the same 77 ft/lbs  of torque is re-applied in the same sequence order, the first two or three fasteners may turn because the static friction is overcome by the 77 ft/ lbs  of torque being applied.  These fasteners will torque properly because they are in a dynamic state when 77 ft/lbs is reached.  The next fastener may not move when the torque of at 77 ft/ lbs is applied.  It could very well be that this fastener's real clamping force value has been reduced to 70 ft/lbs of torque, but static friction will not allow the fastener to turn with 77 ft/lbs of torque applied.  This fastener will maintain its clamping force of 70 ft/lbs of torque.

 

Procedure B:  Starting in the same torque sequencing order, if each fastener (one at a time) is loosened only enough to allow for a dynamic torque to 77 ft/lbs to be applied, then each fastener will have a more uniform clamping force.

 

Procedure B will have a more uniform clamping force for each of the fasteners before the final 90 degree turn of the fastener.

 

I am sure that either procedure will work fine, but I just wanted to show that the results will be different and why the results will be different.  One of the great benefits of this forum is that we can gather valuable information and use that information to suit our specific needs.

 

@dripley, what I would do in your situation is just use a cordless drill on the maximum torque setting and run all of the bolts down and call it good.  And be sure to re-check them.

 

- John

 

 

[Blueox01]

5 minutes ago, Tractorman said:

 

Back to @dripley's first post regarding the head bolt torque procedure.  I am sure he wants to know the correct procedure - I would, too.  Although service manuals are a great resource for making a quality repair, sometimes clarity is lacking in instruction, or sometimes words or phrases are used that have different meanings for different people. 

 

When I am in doubt, I like to approach things from a fundamental point of view - in this case, the point of view of a fastener.

 

The purpose for applying a specified torque value to a fastener is to make sure the fastener maintains its designed clamping force for a long time during normal operations when vibrations and thermal expansions / contractions are occurring. 

 

A fastener can be brought to 77 ft/lbs of torque in a dynamic state.  If a person wanted to increase this torque to 82 ft/lbs of torque from a static state, then the person may find that the fastener does not move when 82 ft/lbs of torque is applied.  This is the result of static friction. If the fastener does not move with 82 ft/lbs of torque applied, it is still holding a clamping force of 77 ft/lbs .  It is kind of like trying to slide a heavy box on a smooth floor.  It takes more force to get it moving than to keep it moving - static vs. dynamic.

 

The following example is hypothetical and I make certain assumptions for clarity:

 

In the case of installing a head, the fastener is to be clean and lightly oiled to ensure a uniform clamping force for each of the fasteners when tightening the fastener to a specified torque.

 

  *  First, all fasteners are brought to 77 ft/lbs of torque using the proper torque sequence.  At this point, the first fasteners that were torqued will have lost some of their clamping force.  These fasteners will not be "loose", but for sure, their clamping force will have been reduced somewhat at this point.

 

Procedure A:  If the same 77 ft/lbs  of torque is re-applied in the same sequence order, the first two or three fasteners may turn because the static friction is overcome by the 77 ft/ lbs  of torque being applied.  These fasteners will torque properly because they are in a dynamic state when 77 ft/lbs is reached.  The next fastener may not move when the torque of at 77 ft/ lbs is applied.  It could very well be that this fastener's real clamping force value has been reduced to 70 ft/lbs of torque, but static friction will not allow the fastener to turn with 77 ft/lbs of torque applied.  This fastener will maintain its clamping force of 70 ft/lbs of torque.

 

Procedure B:  Starting in the same torque sequencing order, if each fastener (one at a time) is loosened only enough to allow for a dynamic torque to 77 ft/lbs to be applied, then each fastener will have a more uniform clamping force.

 

Procedure B will have a more uniform clamping force for each of the fasteners before the final 90 degree turn of the fastener.

 

I am sure that either procedure will work fine, but I just wanted to show that the results will be different and why the results will be different.  One of the great benefits of this forum is that we can gather valuable information and use that information to suit our specific needs.

 

@dripley, what I would do in your situation is just use a cordless drill on the maximum torque setting and run all of the bolts down and call it good.  And be sure to re-check them.

 

- John

 

 

If you release torque how do you know you haven't released the compression of the sealing gasket, why would you do that? Why do you torque "center out"  Why is there any sequence?  Why can't you torque at 77 ft lbs any way you want, then back off and "re-torque" ?  Because if you torque from center out the bolts after setting might not be at  77ft lbs , hence "RE-CHECK!   

[AH64ID]

16 minutes ago, Blueox01 said:

If you release torque how do you know you haven't released the compression of the sealing gasket, why would you do that? Why do you torque "center out"  Why is there any sequence?  Why can't you torque at 77 ft lbs any way you want, then back off and "re-torque" ?  Because if you torque from center out the bolts after setting might not be at  77ft lbs , hence "RE-CHECK!   

 

When re-torques are done on HG's they are done one bolt at a time, in the proper order. This doesn't release the force on the HG, just does a re-torque, vs a tq check. 

[Tractorman]

36 minutes ago, Blueox01 said:

If you release torque how do you know you haven't released the compression of the sealing gasket, why would you do that?

 

Actually by just following the procedure, you have already reduced compression on the head gasket on the first fasteners when you have completed the first round of torqueing to 77 ft/lbs. 

 

- John

[dripley]

5 hours ago, trreed said:

I would use brass instead of stainless.

No brass at the hardware store only  nylon. Hosed them with carb cleaner, ran the thru them then hosed them out again. Got a good bit of crud out of then. Took one the bolts andran then to the bottom of hole dry with my fingers. 

1 hour ago, Tractorman said:

 

@dripley, what I would do in your situation is just use a cordless drill on the maximum torque setting and run all of the bolts down and call it good.  And be sure to re-check them.

You just had to add procedure C. I at procedure C. Think I'll just use the breaker bar on there and give it a pull.

 

This bodes another question. 

 

Check/re torque to 77 then turn 90* more or do the check/re torque in sequence then go back and turn the additional 90* in sequence?

 

I appreciate all the input gentlemen. The head is on the truck. Just got thru cleanig all the bolts and need get it torqued down today.

Forgot to get a pick before flipping the. My brother helped me get it on and he has bum hand. Did not have the balls to make him flip it again. Managed to set it on there gently.

[Dieselfuture]

10 hours ago, dripley said:

Are you saying they are seperate from the head and replaceable or drill the hole out and install something aftermarket?

If they are bad it will require machine work and aftermarket guides that press in after hole gets machined bigger, kinda like fixing threads, you drill bigger tap and screw in thread that will be same size as before.

[dripley]

8 minutes ago, Dieselfuture said:

If they are bad it will require machine work and aftermarket guides that press in after hole gets machined bigger, kinda like fixing threads, you drill bigger tap and screw in thread that will be same size as before.

thats what I thought you meant. Mine were fine as were the seals. They looked new in the head. Still replaced them though. No bits and pieces like I saw in Mikes head. The only times I have ever seen any blue smoke out of mine were when the oe VP failed and when start it up in the low 20's with out plugging it in. This is without the grids connected. I dont see it in the upper 20's or if I have plugged in. Nothing on initial start up either. Hopefully all is well. I told the machine shop if anything extra needed to be done I was willing to pay for it as long as they called me and explained it. I put trust in them and we will see how it turns out.

 

On a different note, the head is on and torqued. FWIW I did the check torque method. I was surprised that after the second torque to 77 lbs that I still got movement out of all the bolts. The closer to the ends of the head the less movement. The movement on the end bolts was negligible and may not have really moved. But that last 90* turn was a bit strenuous. The 77 was easy. So tomorrow the exhaust manifold and turbo. Hopefully will get the injectors, fuel lines and then the rockers. I would be nice to hear it run tomorrow evening. We shall see. 

[Tractorman]

We will be looking forward to hearing it run...

 

How many miles on your truck?  You may have already said and I just don't recall.

 

- John

[dripley]

18 minutes ago, Tractorman said:

We will be looking forward to hearing it run...

 

How many miles on your truck?  You may have already said and I just don't recall.

 

- John

465k.

[Blueox01]

1 hour ago, dripley said:

thats what I thought you meant. Mine were fine as were the seals. They looked new in the head. Still replaced them though. No bits and pieces like I saw in Mikes head. The only times I have ever seen any blue smoke out of mine were when the oe VP failed and when start it up in the low 20's with out plugging it in. This is without the grids connected. I dont see it in the upper 20's or if I have plugged in. Nothing on initial start up either. Hopefully all is well. I told the machine shop if anything extra needed to be done I was willing to pay for it as long as they called me and explained it. I put trust in them and we will see how it turns out.

 

On a different note, the head is on and torqued. FWIW I did the check torque method. I was surprised that after the second torque to 77 lbs that I still got movement out of all the bolts. The closer to the ends of the head the less movement. The movement on the end bolts was negligible and may not have really moved. But that last 90* turn was a bit strenuous. The 77 was easy. So tomorrow the exhaust manifold and turbo. Hopefully will get the injectors, fuel lines and then the rockers. I would be nice to hear it run tomorrow evening. We shall see. 

Imagine that!  So the gasket compressed as you did step 1&2 and you "re-checked torque" to make sure it was right PRIOR to the final 90* torque. But you had more movement on re-check at the center and less going out, right?

31 minutes ago, Tractorman said:

We will be looking forward to hearing it run...

 

How many miles on your truck?  You may have already said and I just don't recall.

 

- John

Not sure who your asking this of, I have 400k + on my block Truck has 857K    

[Tractorman]

2 hours ago, Blueox01 said:

I have 400k + on my block Truck has 857K    

 

Looks like you might be one of those one million mile guys not to far in the future.  I don't know if I will live long enough to accomplish that with my truck - I just recently cleared 300,000 miles.

 

- John

[NIsaacs]

Are you missing a soft plug on the front of the head, or does it just look that way?