NV4500 broke...

[Mopar1973Man]

1 hour ago, NIsaacs said:

That's pretty good for a stock type clutch disk and your power level.

 

South Bend Con OFE clutch this was my second one.

 

1 hour ago, NIsaacs said:

I went with a stage one upgrade when I did mine. It is a little noisy at an idle with gear rollover.

 

The Mobil 50 SAE transmission fluid stops the gear roll over noise completely. Silent operation.

 

After seeing the pilot bearing not in the flywheel I knew there would be other problems. I promise I'll get photos one way or another. I'll talk to Abe as well about that. 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[NIsaacs]

54 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

South Bend Con OFE clutch this was my second one.

 

The Mobil 50 SAE transmission fluid stops the gear roll over noise completely. Silent operation.

 

 

 

If you upgrade the disk hub, Mobil 50 or not, you will get noise. My tranny was quiet too, with my stock clutch. Your clutch looks like a plain jane 13125 (13" x 1.250" spline) stock type Luk. Better than the 12.3" it was born with, but not much. With your power level I would move up some. I would guess that clutch to be rated about 400/800. You need one in the 450/900 range+

[98whitelightnin]

This new SB organic DD I got is smooth as butter on take off. It can be a little tough to get into gear from a stop and it is definitely slower shifting but it holds power at my level no problem. I ordered from DAP and it came fed ex the next day at no extra charge!

[Mopar1973Man]

Yeah I already got quote for dual disc Valair clutch which is do-able. I'm going to call both South Bend and Valair and talk to the tech for sure.

[KATOOM]

Sorry about the news Mike...

 

I'm curious to see what you find about the 5th gear.  I learned years ago that the upgraded fully splinned 5th gear shaft is not really an "upgrade", because all these aftermarket parts come from China and their metallurgy is so bad that most rebuild parts are weaker than OEM.  Sad thats all we have to choose from but thats another discussion...

 

Also, I want to know why the pilot walked.  There's no reason this should have happened.

[NIsaacs]

1 hour ago, KATOOM said:

 

Also, I want to know why the pilot walked.  There's no reason this should have happened.

 

I would guess the pilot bearing pocket in the flywheel was machined too large or the Chinese bearing was slightly small.

 

I would also guess that since 5th and reverse both have problems that there is a major issue with the counter shaft bearings. I dread the day my 6 spd wears out.

[Mopar1973Man]

Yup. That's what I'm figuring is counter shaft bearings. 5th and reverse both are screwed up.

[KATOOM]

I'd be questioning the Mobil 50 transmission fluid...  You dont have very many miles on a transmission that has a bad input shaft bear and counter shaft bearings...and whatever else you havent discovered yet.  No matter, its definitely not normal.  And you have a temp gauge too which means if this was a temperature related problem then you would have seen it in the gauge.  It sounds like components simply fell apart or that lubricity was an issue.  I guess we'll see what you find out...

[Mopar1973Man]

Stems more from the pilot bearing falling out of the flywheel. The pilot bearing has been out of the flywheel for a long time. There was groove wore in the flywheel face. This changes how torque is applied to the counter shaft and the stress placed on the input shaft bearing. Then excessive gear play in the counter shaft. How long was the pilot bearing out I'm not sure but for there to be a groove in the flywheel tells me for quite some time. 

 

Temp wise even failed ran 160 to 170F. No change, no rise. Oil wasn't even dark, just full of glitter. 

 

Also it doesn't help that I was in the process of building a performance tune, added more power. No where like you with RV275 injectors. 150 HP VCO (7 x 0.010) and Quadzilla on kill mode. 

 

Then the only things replaced previously was bearings, syncros, mainshaft, and larger 5th gear (hard facing was bad in the bearing hub).

Edited September 2, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[NIsaacs]

8 hours ago, KATOOM said:

I'd be questioning the Mobil 50 transmission fluid...  

 

I wouldn't, that should be some fine oil. I think Mike's report on the pilot bearing is spot on. 

[KATOOM]

2 hours ago, Mopar1973Man said:

Stems more from the pilot bearing falling out of the flywheel. The pilot bearing has been out of the flywheel for a long time. There was groove wore in the flywheel face. This changes how torque is applied to the counter shaft and the stress placed on the input shaft bearing. Then excessive gear play in the counter shaft. How long was the pilot bearing out I'm not sure but for there to be a groove in the flywheel tells me for quite some time. 

 

Temp wise even failed ran 160 to 170F. No change, no rise. Oil wasn't even dark, just full of glitter. 

 

Also it doesn't help that I was in the process of building a performance tune, added more power. No where like you with RV275 injectors. 150 HP VCO (7 x 0.010) and Quadzilla on kill mode. 

 

Then the only things replaced previously was bearings, syncros, mainshaft, and larger 5th gear (hard facing was bad in the bearing hub).

 

A few things I dont agree with your assessment are... If the pilot was completely out of the flywheel then the total clutch assembly vibration would have been intense since no pilot support would allow the clutch plate to walk off center.  Even though the pilot was not fully in place, it was still keeping the input shaft from wobbling, and you can see that by the grove it made on the flywheel too.  And, there's no reason for a pilot to move out of its pressed position...especially if its in working condition.

 

The input shaft is free from the countershaft and would have to be severely out of alignment to place any deflection on the counter shaft.

 

What I'm guessing happened is exactly reverse of what you're thinking...  Whereby I bet you find that one of more of your main or counter bearings is toast, which placed pressure on the input shaft.  Thats what destroyed the input bearing, which then in its movement caused the pilot to creep towards the wobble.

 

Did excess power do this?...I cant say but more power definitely does place more stress on things.  I have no idea what your driving style habits are like so I cant comment, although unless you're towing huge amounts of weight with that transmission, I cant even imagine why it would fail in so little miles unless something gave away.

Without attacking the almighty lube...I'm going to say that inferior bearing quality (from China) or a lubrication issue was the cause.  I do not believe this was caused by the pilot bearing.

Edited September 2, 2019 by KATOOM

[NIsaacs]

4 hours ago, KATOOM said:

 

The input shaft is free from the countershaft and would have to be severely out of alignment to place any deflection on the counter shaft.

 

Without attacking the almighty lube...I'm going to say that inferior bearing quality (from China) or a lubrication issue was the cause.  

 

Per Quad 4x4, TDR issue 44 page 142, one of the most frequent transmission failures, is due to misalignment of the input shaft drive gear with the countershaft driven gear, when the pilot bearing fails. I assume because of the angle cut gears, it only takes a slight amount of misalignment to cause havoc.

 

They also point out, that if the thrust bearing is loose on the input shaft, that the in and out movement will damage a pilot bearing or input shaft nose. So yes, both possibilities exist. Good Call Mike and KATOOM with your in depth thinking. I will be watching and learning on this thread.

 

They also claim, the oem bearing kit is the only way to go. That aftermarket kits are not up to the task. See Tech Note 2: in this link.

https://torqueking.com/product/10005/qu10005-1997-2005-complete-nv4500-bearing-and-seal-kit-for-dodge/

 

KATOOM, since you as such a thinker, do you care to comment on your lube comments?

[KATOOM]

5 hours ago, NIsaacs said:

 

Per Quad 4x4, TDR issue 44 page 142, one of the most frequent transmission failures, is due to misalignment of the input shaft drive gear with the countershaft driven gear, when the pilot bearing fails. I assume because of the angle cut gears, it only takes a slight amount of misalignment to cause havoc.

 

They also point out, that if the thrust bearing is loose on the input shaft, that the in and out movement will damage a pilot bearing or input shaft nose. So yes, both possibilities exist. Good Call Mike and KATOOM with your in depth thinking. I will be watching and learning on this thread.

 

They also claim, the oem bearing kit is the only way to go. That aftermarket kits are not up to the task. See Tech Note 2: in this link.

https://torqueking.com/product/10005/qu10005-1997-2005-complete-nv4500-bearing-and-seal-kit-for-dodge/

 

KATOOM, since you as such a thinker, do you care to comment on your lube comments?

 

First off, thank you for the kind words.   I appreciate all the ethical people on this forum.

 

Yes, Quad 4x4 is correct in that a bad pilot will damage the input shaft bearing.  But generally speaking, most pilot bearings are NOT oversized sealed roller bearings either.  Rather what we see in the automotive industry is either a solid bushing or an exposed needle bearing.  Both can easily go bad too from holding the clutch pedal in while the transmission is in gear at stop lights.  A BAD HABIT some people have too...

 

Also Quad 4x4 is correct in that a bad thrust bearing will cause the input to push/pull which generally is not a problem for the pilot but rather bad for the counter gear alignment.

 

All that said, I guess an easy way to understand if the pilot could have been the problem all along is to see if the roller pilot bearing still on Mikes input shaft (per the picture posted) is bad.  If its still intact and not falling apart then its likely that the movement of the wiggling input shaft drew the pilot out of its position.

 

As for lubrication...  Well I cant comment on that since it would take further investigating in the transmission to see how everything else was holding up.  If there's a obvious condition on other components which is consistent with inadequate lubrication then you can only conclude that there was a problem.  But if the overall condition is good but only that a few components failed then I would lean towards crappy Chinese parts or a poor rebuild...or both.

Edited September 3, 2019 by KATOOM

[AH64ID]

Sorry to read about this Michael! Sounds like it was fortuitous to get the '96 back on the road. 

 

I know you've driven a few DD clutches as well, but my experience with them is that they aren't worth the power that requires them for normal every day driving. That's with both Valair and SBC. I'd de-tune, or not tune in the first place, to stick with a single disk... heck I was going to take out a little torque on my 05 to run the OHD vs the OFE. 

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

5th gear is gone... Abe @ Weller Truck sent me some photos. More to come.

5th gear nut still in place.

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Mopar1973Man

[Bullet]

Geez...how much power are you running to shred an overdrive gear like that?  

[AH64ID]

Ouch!

 

 

[Mopar1973Man]

Close to 500 HP. Did it on the interstate west Caldwell in the 80 MPH zone. Back off for semi truck to pass another. When it was clear rolled into the power and hit resume on the cruise. 5th gear disappeared.

 

Drove home in 4th.

 

I was building my performance tune for the Quadzilla apparently its very strong tune.

 

Now that is twice I've broke something and it's not lube failure. First was the main shaft with my Edge Comp and +50 HP.

[KATOOM]

It clearly sounds like you need to mellow out your tune...or put the 4500 aside and get yourself a G56...or both.

[dripley]

Double ouch!!