P0216 - Sad but true...

[Mopar1973Man]

Yeap... The old VP44 gave up. Timing is stuck in full advancement rattle very hard and very little power. P0216 code is present. I pulled the Quadzilla and still present so I know the problem it's not Quadzilla related. It hits a state of limp mode won't power more than 40 MPH. At times it will clear up and run well then the timing goes back to full advancement pull the power way down. I did make it home but very slow ride. 

 

I can say without a doubt the Quadzilla only reports commanded timing, not actual timing. 

 

Time to make some calls to DAP in the morning... 

Edited April 9, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[IBMobile]

That sucks but at least you got it home.  How many miles on it?

[Mopar1973Man]

Odometer: 293k

 

OEM VP44 pump: 50k (Replaced under warranty)

 

So right around 243k miles. I'm not crying about it at all. Wore out and gave up. What I'm surprised about how quickly it failed. I was in the town of Riggins, ID with a friend stopped at the store for a soda and left there and it went from normal smooth running to hard rattle in a split second. 

 

On my way home I was taking it slow and easy. Not much choice being when it rattled like this there was no power. Max speed was about 40 MPH matted to the floor. Then randomly a few times the timing would retard and smooth right out and run good then pop instantly and go advance and fall on its face.

 

The VP44 might have been telling me it's been failing being I've been fighting to get my MPG's up and just wasn't doing it. 

 

Edited April 9, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[CumminsTech]

That's some crappy news man, but looking at the bright side at least you made it home on its own power not on the end of a hook.

[Mopar1973Man]

4 minutes ago, CumminsTech said:

That's some crappy news man, but looking at the bright side at least you made it home on its own power not on the end of a hook.

 

 

Like I tell most people... The "Good Lord" watches over us. So far I've always made it home. The only time the truck was towed home was the transmission when the main shaft broke. Even then I got a friend to put it on his flatbed trailer and bring it home the 20 miles. I'm glad I took the time to go visit my friend in town. If I didn't I would have had the failure tomorrow when I head to Council, ID for personal business. At least the 1996 Dodge is ready for the fall back rig. Not walking yet. I've always got a fallback plan.

 

As I was backing the truck in the shop. I was listening to how it's running. It got a weird loading of drag pulling the RPM down just about 20 RPMs and then pop back up with a surge of throttle seen on the Quadzilla it more or less fighting to even run at idle. Still got a tinny injection rattle which is the timing being full advanced. Still puzzled by that all the trucks I've dealt with usually go to the retarded state and have low power. Still odd how the limit pedal (not dead pedal) happens it's only throttle so much then like something pops loose and power comes on. Then to here the timing flip-flop back and forth so wildly really strange. 

 

One thing on my project list is to verify the AC noise again just for safety sake before installing a new pump. 

[CumminsTech]

Of the times I've broke down I've only got towed once and it was while I was on my way to work on the interstate and highway patrol would not let my boss come with the gooseneck to haul me to the shop they called the wrecker as soon as he found out it would not fire  to move off to the exit ramp. Was a little frustrating because it would have been loaded on the trailer the same way as the tow company would have winched up on the deck and off I go. But ya can't argue with the troopers?. It's always a positive having friends who will come at the drop of a hat to do a road rescue, I'd rather pay my friends in food, beverages and return the favor than pay a outlandish tow bill. 

It is odd that the timing is jumping around like you describe, not just staying derated?

[Mopar1973Man]

The trans failure was me towing a friends truck back to his house. I called him told him to meet me at 45th parallel because my transmission had failed. We unloaded his truck, unhitched me I drove up on the trailer (still had 1st, 2nd, 5th and reverse). Tied it down and hauled home. I could have driven it home but why make a bad problem worse. 

 

As I sat for dinner tonight and thought about the whole VP44 failure it might have been giving me clues all along with the MPG's being low and fighting the Quadzilla to gain good MPG for the last 3 months. Then the odd lopey launches might of been the VP44 having problems dealing with the larger injectors.

 

March

 

Feburary

 

January

Edited April 10, 2017 by Mopar1973Man

[dripley]

Sorry to hear of the troubles. Had mine towed three time, once for a lift pump failure and twice for an ECM failure. I was able to drive it to the dealer the one time my VP failed. I was lucky on the ECM that I got towed to someone who knew these trucks and was able to hook me up with one for a reasonable price. Just run it out here and I'll swap it in for your.

[Mopar1973Man]

The truck is all tucked away in the shop and hidden from the public. It's going to get the dark closet punishment for crapping the bed. 

[notlimah]

Sorry to hear Mike! Eveytime

I hear about another pump going out I get worried about mine but then I just think, as long as there's good fuel pressure there's nothing you can really do about it until it happens! 

[Dieselfuture]

I can't help but think all these vp44 failures at same time as testing V2 stuff. Not really wanted to make a connection just saying,  plus I'm kind of hooked on this new V2, hopefully there is no connection. 

[JAG1]

It would be interesting to find a rebuilder that would let you watch them tear it down and find exactly what went wrong.

 

Nice to find out if there is a common weak point in other words.

 

I still have my VP that was running fine even with the 0216 code for 4 years running back and forth to Nevada. Ran it to Idaho and was still running smooth when you changed it out.

 

I think I might take it down to Pacific Fuel injection and see if they will do that for me, let me see what went wrong on it.

 

Now that I have 2 VP trucks it would be good to have one ready.

 

You may have a point there Dieselfuture... are you talking about timing control device?

Edited April 10, 2017 by JAG1

[Dieselfuture]

@JAG1 yes, I wonder if we're moving some internal pieces beyond their working standard, or if they were used to being in one spot for so long and now we're forcing it out of its bounds. Picture a piston with rings in a cylinder that went up and down for 200k and then we will start moving it past that point..... or something like that. 

[Me78569]

Well couple of things to point out in terms how what the Quadzilla is doing vs other tuners / OEM.  

 

There is no magic going on in the Quadzilla.  all the V2 does it allow you to choose the adjustment to oem.  As an example, I ran a data log with the old Beta comp tune, timing set to 8* which is normal for old tunes.  By 2400 rpm the Quadzilla was asking for 36* of timing because of the way the map works.  Anything over ~30* wasn't possible.  When you look at the output of the V2 tuning vs the output of older tunes the V2 stuff is actually way way way less aggressive in terms of timing output.  

 

Smarty on Lvl 1 really never allows timing to come below 18-19* of timing,  

 

Steady state fueling on OEM will ask for the same timing number for as long as you hold the pedal in 1 position.  IE if you are cruising down the road for 2 hours at 65 mph your timing does not jump around at all.  

 

I encourage you to test this yourself by running around on lvl 0 for awhile.    Do a WOT run and watch where timing maxes out, you will find that OEM will ask for almost 26* when hot and over 28* when cold.    That is the reason why I always recommend 25 or 26* as your max timing mark in the tune.  

 

The Quadzilla is playing by all the same rules, only differences is the variables that set how much and when are user defined.   The outgoing message to the vp44 is still formatted the same way. 

 

 

@Mopar1973Man you are correct the Quadzilla shows on the screen how much timing was commanded.  I don't have the documentation to spit back how much was actually used.  I know it's there, but I can't really start unlessI know where to look.

 

Sucks about the Vp44, but after that many miles I would say you got your moneys worth.  anything that makes it 240k is not unreliable.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Me78569

[Mopar1973Man]

1 hour ago, Dieselfuture said:

I can't help but think all these vp44 failures at same time as testing V2 stuff. Not really wanted to make a connection just saying,  plus I'm kind of hooked on this new V2, hopefully there is no connection. 

 

 

No connection. Trust me. P0216 code and the behavior of the pump have no connection at all. There is a malfunction in the timing circuit of the VP44 causing the pump to run full advanced on timing. 

 

24 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

@Mopar1973Man you are correct the Quadzilla shows on the screen how much timing was commanded

 

That was my first thought to watch timing displayed but it had no connection to what I was hearing. After checking the error codes and hearing the timing return and then fail again. I knew what I was seeing is commanded timing on the Quadzilla not actual timing. 

 

26 minutes ago, Me78569 said:

Sucks about the Vp44, but after that many miles I would say you got your moneys worth.  anything that makes it 240k is not unreliable.

 

 

Very True. It is not unreliable. I say it performed just fine for nearly 250k miles. Does it frighten me to know the next one might fail? No. Does it worry me that I've got to carry another VP44 in the back seat? No. If you look back at history most older 60's and 70's vehicles were doing an engine rebuild back at around100k miles because they were worn out. So now I've got a VP44 injection pump that has a timing failure P0216 code and needs replacement at 243k miles. I'm going to say this one is strictly all wear. Not a fuel pressure problem being I'm still holding 15-17 PSI. Lubricity I will admit I've been skipping on the 2 cycle oil a bit being the massive amount of miles I put down. I only consumed 687 gallons of fuel in the last 3 months. I did add 2 cycle oil to the tank when the pump started getting goofy. I think its band-aid at best and got me home. 

[dripley]

Were pumping out alot of blue smoke? When my original went at 75k it acted a lot like yours but pumped out a lot of blue when it was acting up. Just curious since I have never heard of anyone mentioning that at failure. 

[Mopar1973Man]

4 minutes ago, dripley said:

 

Were pumping out alot of blue smoke?

 

 

No. Completely clean exhaust neither black or blue smoke. Just heavy timing rattle and no power.

[dripley]

Mine did. Looked like old gasser with bad rings. Funny thing was I could shut the engine down and sometimes it would run right after that with no blue smoke until it acted up again.

[Mopar1973Man]

Called DAP (Jacob) and talked to him. He told me average life span is about 100-120k miles for VP44. When I told him I cleared 243k miles he was rather shocked. I'm looking at my options on pumps. Bad part is no matter what I'm going to lose my warranty on the pump because of the wire tap.

[dripley]

I have 180k on mine. Sounds like I am over due. Makes you wonder what kind of fuel addatives most folks are running.