Jump to content
015point9

Filling oil filter when changing oil?

Recommended Posts

21 hours ago, AH64ID said:

I take it you’ve never seen a virgin oil report on particulate size?

 

Oil out of the bottle has more larger contaminates than oil at the end of its life. Oil manufacturers are counting on the oil filter to clean their oil. Any oil that goes thru the block without filtering is doing more damage than good.

 

When you pour oil into the valve cover it drains jnto the pan. The oil added will never go thru anything with a tight tolerance without being filtered. The same cannot be said for oil added to the center of a filter.

 

If the oil is so contaminated prior to pouring in the engine then it doesn't matter where it goes first because cold oil will run through the bypass system long before it adequately flows through the filter.  So even though you think all that new oil is being filtered during the initial startup...its not.  Its actually running through the engine many times over before the filter has the opportunity to filter contamination's out.  If this wasnt the case then the oil filter would blow off the engine during high pressure moments.

 

No matter, the volume of oil I even pour into the filter during the pre-fill is probably about 2/3 of a quart at the most.

 

21 hours ago, AH64ID said:

Pressure is a measure of resistance, and a dry or wet filter will have the same resistance based on what’s after the filter. A filter rated for 20+ GPM is not going to have an issue with a “dry start”. If it did it would have shown up on my UOA’s by now. 

 

If a filter cannot handle the initial low flow of oil at idle how can it be expected to withstand the psid of normal use and high rpms/flow? Or the resistance created by oil that’s only a few degrees above its pour point? 

 

Exactly...pressure is a measure of resistance.  So those couple seconds when the oil filter is filling there is very little pressure in the oil system.  And "normal" use would be measured when the filter is full and the media is saturated because the pressure is then relative.  "Normal" is not pressure applied to only one side of the media, so how well the media handles that initial pressure is up to the quality and material of the filter.

 

Lets not forget what happened back when FRAM filters were falling apart internally and sending media shrapnel throughout the engines.  Yes the problem was the glue and yes the problem has supposedly been resolved, but I guess I'm not one for placing all trust in machinery assembly line products.  Actually, I wont run anything but Fleetgaurd oil filters on my truck simply because the ISB is known for a very high pressure / volume oil system which can destroy a dry oil filter.  That said, if the media ever does tear from the blast of pressure upon dry startup, would you know it?  I doubt it...unless you cut the can open an exposed the media.

 

21 hours ago, AH64ID said:

If you’re getting 5 seconds of dry valve train sound you need a new oil! Even with a dry filter and a change I’ve never heard 5 seconds of dry valve train. 

 

My motor is noisier after 6 weeks of sitting than it ever is after an oil change with a dry filter and even then it’s not more than 1-2 seconds. 

 

Yeah 5 seconds was a bit of an exaggeration.  Maybe a couple seconds...depending on the vehicle.  But I have to say that my vehicles never make any valvetrain noise after sitting for long periods.  Well...I retract that.  I do have an older Ranger which always sounds like the valves are trying to exit the head during any startup.  I dislike it when auto manufactures have the throttle auto ramp up upon startup.  Another topic...

 

12 hours ago, AH64ID said:

But is that really any different than any start after sitting overnight where the filter is already only ±1/2 full? 

 

Yes it is...  Again, because when the filter media is saturated then relative pressure places equal force on the media, unless your filter completely drains.  But oil systems generally maintain a prime which is why most oil filters have anti-drain valves incorporated in the design.  Most are pretty weak though...  But nonetheless, I've never taken my filter off and not had them over-spill on me.  Even if I let my truck sit overnight, the oil filter is still within 1/2" to 3/4" from the top when I remove it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dieselfuture said:

I think we need a better explanation on this one, I think I get it but not to sure. It can be looked at different ways

No murder in my part...but when we got married in Las Vegas of all places by a judge, he said marriage guaranteed for 20 years.  Now with over double that with 45 years wonder if I could get "reflashed" 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, dave110 said:

Anybody ever.......................

Pre fill through the outside holes. Filter gets filled, although slowly, and oil gets filtered through the filter.

 

That’s my way when servicing heavy equipment and large trucks with dual oil filters, works good on pre filling fuel filters for easy starts when their is no priming meathods too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, sooxies said:

...and Cummins interestingly states in their FSM for the ISB:

Screen Shot 2018-09-26 at 13.09.38.png

 

Just looked in my FSM and it states:

 

OIL FILTER
REMOVAL
(1) Clean the area around the oil filter head.
Remove the filter using a 90-95 mm filter wrench.
(2) Clean the gasket surface of the filter head. The
filter canister O-Ring seal can stick on the filter
head. Make sure it is removed.
INSTALLATION
(1) Fill the oil filter element with clean oil before
installation. Use the same type oil that will be used
in the engine.
(2) Apply a light film of lubricating oil to the sealing
surface before installing the filter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, KATOOM said:

 

If the oil is so contaminated prior to pouring in the engine then it doesn't matter where it goes first because cold oil will run through the bypass system long before it adequately flows through the filter.  So even though you think all that new oil is being filtered during the initial startup...its not.  Its actually running through the engine many times over before the filter has the opportunity to filter contamination's out.  If this wasnt the case then the oil filter would blow off the engine during high pressure moments.

 

I don't agree with that based on how this motor regulates pressure and differential filter pressure. 

 

There are 2 different pressure bypasses on the 5.9.

 

The first is a 75 psi pressure regulating valve, this is the valve that is used when the oil is thick and pressure is thru the roof. When total psi exceeds 75 the bypass valve opens and routes oil back to the pump to keep the system pressure below 75. No unfiltered oil is pushed to the block. This is also used to help warm the oil up as more oil is being pumped than is being used. 

 

The second is a 50 psid filter bypass valve. Pressure leaving the filter has to be 50psi lower than pressure entering the filter, meaning the filter has a major restriction. While this may happen on extreme cold, nearing pour point, startups it will not occur on regular everyday starts. The does bypass the filter and would push unfiltered oil to the block. It certainly isn't an issue when chaning oil, at least not for me as I've never changed my oil in subzero temps. 

 

Additionally, if the oil is bypassing the filter it should be cleaner than the oil in the jug. The filter is always doing its job and after running it for a bit the oil will get cleaned, so the next start will have cleaner oil in case the filter is bypassed, but that's still a very rare occurrence. 

 

Quote

Exactly...pressure is a measure of resistance.  So those couple seconds when the oil filter is filling there is very little pressure in the oil system. 

 

I watch oil pressure on the driver side of the block, meaning the oil has to go thru the filter and part of the block before I register pressure. It's not a couple of seconds more than a normal start at the same temperature to build pressure, it fills the filter very fast. 

 

An oil change at 75° with a dry filter builds pressure faster than a normal start at 10°. 

 

 

Quote

 

Lets not forget what happened back when FRAM filters were falling apart internally and sending media shrapnel throughout the engines.  Yes the problem was the glue and yes the problem has supposedly been resolved, but I guess I'm not one for placing all trust in machinery assembly line products.  Actually, I wont run anything but Fleetgaurd oil filters on my truck simply because the ISB is known for a very high pressure / volume oil system which can destroy a dry oil filter.  That said, if the media ever does tear from the blast of pressure upon dry startup, would you know it?  I doubt it...unless you cut the can open an exposed the media.

 

I don't trust FRAM on anything, dry or wet :-)

 

You should see it on a UOA, as wear on the motor would increase with unfiltered oil. I've never seen it and it's been many years since I've filled an oil filter. 

 

You would probably lose a piston as well, as the cooling jets would likely plug which is what happened in the FRAM debacle. 

 

Quote

 But I have to say that my vehicles never make any valvetrain noise after sitting for long periods. 

 

On my truck I've only heard a slight amount after sitting for over 6 weeks in the heat of summer. The next time my truck sat that long I pulled the injector harness plugs and turned it over until I had oil pressure. 

 

I've driven other rigs that sound like crap nearly every start after sitting as little as 2 weeks. 

 

Quote

 

 

Yes it is...  Again, because when the filter media is saturated then relative pressure places equal force on the media, unless your filter completely drains.  But oil systems generally maintain a prime which is why most oil filters have anti-drain valves incorporated in the design.  Most are pretty weak though...  But nonetheless, I've never taken my filter off and not had them over-spill on me.  Even if I let my truck sit overnight, the oil filter is still within 1/2" to 3/4" from the top when I remove it.

 

These filters don't have ADBV's. For the most part the vehicles I've seen with ADBV's have the filters mounted in a position other than vertical, and they can't be prefilled anyways. 

 

Now that I have a shop that I can park my truck in and can leave it sitting for 24+ hours I don't have filter spill issues. When I lived in a house where the truck wouldn't fully fit in the garage I couldn't ever let it sit for more than a few hours and it would spill every time. 

Edited by AH64ID

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate the debate on this. I've always kind of been on the fence, I used to pre fill until a friend who worked as a GM tech. at the time told me they no longer recommend doing it. Then I stopped. Then I thought about filling through the outer holes to get the best of both worlds. But man it takes longer to fill the filter than to do the oil change. I'm on 'Me' time when I work on the truck anyway so no big deal. Seems like if you ask 10 people about it 5 will pre fill and 5 won't, but this debate brings some very good points to light on both sides, better than I've read anywhere before. Thanks.

For me I guess I'll continue filling through the outside holes. Gives me time for another beer or 3. These oil changes are soon going to be a 6 pack affair :lmao:

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AH64ID said:

The first is a 75 psi pressure regulating valve, this is the valve that is used when the oil is thick and pressure is thru the roof. When total psi exceeds 75 the bypass valve opens and routes oil back to the pump to keep the system pressure below 75. No unfiltered oil is pushed to the block. This is also used to help warm the oil up as more oil is being pumped than is being used. 

 

The second is a 50 psid filter bypass valve. Pressure leaving the filter has to be 50psi lower than pressure entering the filter, meaning the filter has a major restriction. While this may happen on extreme cold, nearing pour point, startups it will not occur on regular everyday starts. The does bypass the filter and would push unfiltered oil to the block. It certainly isn't an issue when chaning oil, at least not for me as I've never changed my oil in subzero temps. 

 

Additionally, if the oil is bypassing the filter it should be cleaner than the oil in the jug. The filter is always doing its job and after running it for a bit the oil will get cleaned, so the next start will have cleaner oil in case the filter is bypassed, but that's still a very rare occurrence. 

 

Just pointing out that the bypass system MUST allow oil into the system otherwise the crank journals would immediately starve of lubrication.  Anything over 50 psi and the oil filter bypass send a percentage of the oil through the system unfiltered.

 

And I'm also not sure what you mean by saying that the oil being bypassed should be cleaner than oil from the jug.  If its being bypassed upon that initial startup after an oil change then its clearly whatever came from the jug. :think:

 

2 hours ago, AH64ID said:

You would probably lose a piston as well, as the cooling jets would likely plug which is what happened in the FRAM debacle. 

 

Agreed...but just pointing out that the SO engines did not come with piston cooling jets. :thumb1:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, KATOOM said:

Agreed...but just pointing out that the SO engines did not come with piston cooling jets. :thumb1:

Ummm... All Cummins engines have oil cooling jets. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, KATOOM said:

 

Just pointing out that the bypass system MUST allow oil into the system otherwise the crank journals would immediately starve of lubrication.  Anything over 50 psi and the oil filter bypass send a percentage of the oil through the system unfiltered.

 

Depends on what bypass you're talking about. The pressure bypass, at 75 psi, does NOT route unfiltered oil to the motor. This is the bypass that is used on most engine starts. All this bypass does is reduce system pressure by re-routing some oil back to the pump inlet, the rest of the oil continues its path to the cooler/filter/turbo/motor/etc. 

 

The filter bypass, which operates on 50 psid, not psi, will send unfiltered oil to the motor but this bypass is not commonly used unless the filter is plugged. It's only there in the event of a plugged filter. 

 

11 minutes ago, KATOOM said:

And I'm also not sure what you mean by saying that the oil being bypassed should be cleaner than oil from the jug.  If its being bypassed upon that initial startup after an oil change then its clearly whatever came from the jug. :think:

 

 

Virgin oil hasn't been filtered at all, the oil in the pan has. While the oil in the pan may appear dirtier it shouldn't have a bunch of larger particles in it, unlike the virgin oil. Large is all relative. 

 

11 minutes ago, KATOOM said:

Agreed...but just pointing out that the SO engines did not come with piston cooling jets. :thumb1:

 

 

Actually they do.. just not the same style as HO. They have to have some sort of piston cooling jet as the piston cooling jet is also what lubricates the wrist pin/bushing. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AH64ID said:

Depends on what bypass you're talking about. The pressure bypass, at 75 psi, does NOT route unfiltered oil to the motor. This is the bypass that is used on most engine starts. All this bypass does is reduce system pressure by re-routing some oil back to the pump inlet, the rest of the oil continues its path to the cooler/filter/turbo/motor/etc. 

 

When doing an oil change does anybody clean their oil pressure regular? 

I have never have cleaned mine but maybe a good idea?

 

If you've cleaned yours... easy as manual says.  As in make sure spring is free and not jammed up with crud.

(I'm not buying the tool to measure spring strength)  

 

And what about turbo oil line so close to heat.  Anybody take it off and blow out with air to get out any chunks that might of coked up?

Edited by 015point9
Added info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never cleaned mine but it shouldn't get too dirty and should get exercised in the northern climates. 

 

The turbo oil line has a constant flow and also shouldn't have any coking. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, AH64ID said:

Actually they do.. just not the same style as HO. They have to have some sort of piston cooling jet as the piston cooling jet is also what lubricates the wrist pin/bushing. 

 

Interesting...  I've read many times that Cummins added the oil cooling jets on the HO motors.  I didnt realize that it was simply a different type.  Good to know too because I always wondered how the SO motors survived. :thumb1:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, KATOOM said:

 

Interesting...  I've read many times that Cummins added the oil cooling jets on the HO motors.  I didnt realize that it was simply a different type.  Good to know too because I always wondered how the SO motors survived. :thumb1:

 

You are actually not too far off. Back in the day before the 5.9, the big truck engines did not have them. I think that is where most of the horror stories of melted pistons originated from. Back then, melted pistons was real, on turned up trucks.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have pre filled just a little. Most times I forget and dont prefil

 

Im not worried about it being unfiltered oil, cause its brand new oil right out of he jug and I do oil changes in a clean room at a hospital and I dont change oil during a sand storm or in a rodeo arena with bulls and horses kicking dirt all over the place :thumbup2::lmao2:

Edited by GSP7
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love rodeo arenas, hate hospitals. After Obamacare I'd rather take my 'cleanliness' chances in a rodeo arena. OK, I'm done :ahhh:

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Macarena Man said:

How many folks have had an engine failure due to pre-filling their oil filters with the 'dirty' new oil ?

That is an interesting question that can't be answered. From the comments above we have all taken different directions to the issue. There is no way that one oil change is going to kill a motor. I have gone both ways thru my 50 years of driving and only lost two motors. One thru total oil starvation, ask the wife about that one. And one on the V10 when it blew shortly after an oil change. Always thought they put to much oil in but by the time it blew the engine had spit the oil out thru the tail pipe. 

 I have 455k on mine with lots of idling and it still runs fine. I do have a weeping HG at the t'stat that needs to be dealt with soon. That is coming soon.

 So I say take your choice and run with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 2:10 PM, Mopar1973Man said:

I think the ISB is a plastic cooling jets if I'm not mistaken. There is an upgrade for metal cooling jets. 

 

 

3937214.png

 

I don't know about you guys... everyone knows these are spark plug boots.

 

- John

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Tractorman said:

 

I don't know about you guys... everyone knows these are spark plug boots.

 

- John

 Your CTD has spark plugs?

 

:shrug:

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Tractorman said:

 

I don't know about you guys... everyone knows these are spark plug boots.

 

- John

 

23 minutes ago, GSP7 said:

 Your CTD has spark plugs?

 

:shrug:

 

17 minutes ago, Marcus2000monster said:

Glow plug harness connectors! :lmao:

 

OMG... :duh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Mopar1973Man said:

 

 

 

OMG... :duh:

 

Yes spark plugs and wouldn't be best to have oil analyzed before putting it in, you know to make sure the oil is good😎

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×